PSP's new 15 BPS rule

[manike]

Steve what do you mean by 'no stored shots'?

You have to be able to buffer a single shot. Or you will miss shots all over the place, making the gun feel weird to shoot, and to be honest all the software manufcaturers will ignore you and actually just say that someone shooting their gun is able to get better rhythm.

 

[manike]

Jeeeez dude

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
How about you lighten up a bit and speak to others like you wish to be spoken to yourself?..... how many languages do you speak incidentally??

Sorry Nick, I know you aren't stupid but I thought you were either being very obtuse or trying to wind me up.

I'm not 'very light' right now. Too much **** going on in my life and I'm finding myself more short tempered with the world than I normally am. My apologies.

BTW, I speak 3 languages, English, French and American. I'm almost fluent in American but some of the colloquialisms are proving tough.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
- it was a tongue in cheek remark about the actual vocabulary - calling the rule a "BPS limit"

Err it IS a BPS limit.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
All I meant was, that if you make a rule saying "you can only shoot X number of shots in a second" - you shouldn't enforce it by a testing method that measures something else.

YOU ARE NOT.

You are setting a rate limit, in BPS. And enforcing it by measuring that rate limit in BPS.

I guess you just really don't get how rates work?

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
BPS (to my - apparently - extremely limited intellect) means "Balls Per Second".... which is to say if that is the value you want governed, then it is irrelevant how each of those balls are spaced within the interval.

As Chicago points out, you are very wrong here.

A rate is a rate. It's a number of events over a period of time. It doesn't have to be a full number of events as long as it is great than 0. It doesn't have to be a set period of time as long as it is greater than 0.

Basic stuff dude.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
If "BPS" is universally accepted as being the space between two shots, within the secret and vastly important circles of the industry where you move, I appologise for any discomfort I may have caused to your professional sensibilities.

It is.

But it's also accepted in open world of rate measurement everywhere, taught in high schools.

It's how the Angel measure it's Max ROF and has been since the days the gun first had an LCD screen.

It's a basic mathematical concept. So basic that I'm stunned that you are even argueing over this.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
It was a JOKE.... which I thought was fairly clear.....

But hey.... maybe my sense of humour is so inferior to your towering intellect, that it didn't register with you.

As mentioned, my sense of humour is seriously lacking lately. I'm not finding the world a very funny place. My aplogies for that. I also thought we were discussing a pretty serious issue.

 

[manike]

Actually no ?

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Just looked through the thread, and didn't see a definition of BPS ?

But - if the MS start off the rule by defining that "BPS is the space between any two shots, multiplied into the number of shots attainable in a second" (or something similar), that would be fine with me, and put this whole debate on the definition of BPS to bed.

The point is, that because "BPS" may be an industry standard to the techies - it is not to the players - and as the rulebook is written for the players, it should be worded in a way that leaves no room for interpretation...... Interpretation is what gives you another Toulouse, with scores of players banned without intentionally breaking the gun rules.

Nick, should they define every word that might confuse people? Maybe I guess?

BPS, defines itself. Balls Per Second.

That is the definition, and since it's 'per' it's obviously a rate.

But then I guess it isn't for some. Stunned.

I think they spell it out VERY clearly in saying no shots closer than X ms, which results in a rof of 15.X

The important part being no shots closer than Xms.

I would suggest we don't confuse people by adding more stuff. Just tell them their guns can't fire more than two shots within X ms.

I guess if you want to teach people how to work out rates and what it means that doesn't bother me.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
What then remains, is the whole "buffering/storing" issue, which I think you should look at more closely, as without buffering, you are dropping ROFs way below 10 effectively.

I agree.

The wording is confusing. Is buffering allowed for a single trigger activation to smooth out the inputs?

What do they mean by 'storing shots'.

I don't think you have a hope in hell to tell if a gun is buffering shots, and heck after the gun goes into ramp mode it has to be...

The rule doesn't make sense there.

If you don't allow people to buffer input signals... it will be done anyway and I doubt it will be something you can catch.

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by manike
Steve what do you mean by 'no stored shots'?

You have to be able to buffer a single shot. Or you will miss shots all over the place, making the gun feel weird to shoot, and to be honest all the software manufcaturers will ignore you and actually just say that someone shooting their gun is able to get better rhythm.

Hey Simon,

As you have seen I have been trying to get a grip on the problem we have discussed so much in the past and you know that I simply lack the knowledge and expertise. What I do know is what end results should be achieved.

What I suggested came from the preliminary suggestions for PSP's new rules:
____________________________
- The gun has to stop shooting within 150 ms of the last trigger press. (That's three shots, one at 0 ms, one at 65 ms, and one at 130 ms; so you've basically gotta keep pulling every 195 ms (a little better than 5 bps) to stay at 15.4 bps.) That also means that if you hold down the trigger, and the gun stops shooting, and then you release the trigger and it shoots again, it's illegal.
___________________________

I obviously didn't translate this correctly and now I how doubts about whether they worded it right.

The main thing is that guns must not have a shot come out way later after the trigger is released (whatever time-frame that needs to be) and no more than one shot (if that is technically possible).

I may have misunderstood or forgotten what you explained before in other threads about this.

Please help if you understand what I'm looking for or what is needed.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Chicago
It takes the skill out of the game. Now players who suck at whining and bitching will be able to do just as well as players with mad whining and bitching skills.

Do I know you...

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Oh - Steve !

The gun has to stop shooting within 150 ms of the last trigger press

I know what confused me now - the word "last" in that sentence.

It is not clear if it means "last" as in "before the next trigger cycle" - or "last" as in "after which you stop pulling the trigger".

You see my point now I hope - about it being unclear if buffering is allowed or not - which it should be.... ?

Nick

 

[Wadidiz]

Oh - Steve !

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
I know what confused me now - the word "last" in that sentence.

It is not clear if it means "last" as in "before the next trigger cycle" - or "last" as in "after which you stop pulling the trigger".

You see my point now I hope - about it being unclear if buffering is allowed or not - which it should be.... ?

This wording thing is very difficult, at least for me. I want to find a concise way to say what you've written (and we know brevity isn't my forte).

And I do understand that buffering must take place during a shooting sequence. That's part of what we're paying for in an electronic gun.

Simon, I know you're very busy but I wish you could help us with the wording since I believe you know what we're looking for and what is technically feasible.

(REPEATED DISCLAIMER: What I've suggested are solely my suggestions and may or may not in any way resemble the final rules the Millennnium rules people decide upon.)

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Suggestion

Working from your initial wording Steve (in no particular order):

- BPS is defined as being the rate of fire measured as the shortest time between any two shots.

- BPS is capped at 15, which is to say no two shots can be spaced by less time than 65 milliseconds.

- Buffering shots is allowed, to the extent that no more shots are fired than the nummer of manual trigger activations.

- No shot may be fired (whether by virtue of buffering or trigger activation) later than 150 milliseconds after activation of the trigger.

(...... This is one thing I have no idea how anyone would enforce..... but as a matter of principal it should be in there.)

- Only true semi-auto markers are allowed (no bouncing or enhanced firing modes)

- Penalty: 141 for first offence at an event, 341 for second offence at an event, 341 and disqualification of the player from the event and the team being made to play one player short for the remainder of the event for 3rd offence. - If the player is in breach of the rule after a game, the penalty will be carried over to the start of next game the team plays at that event.

(I think it should be a personal penalty, not a team penalty, so that if player A offends, then it is not second offence if player B does it after - but a new first offence...... This would however mean markers had to be tagged)

Nick

 

[jotajotaZ]

I'ts very hard to have a 1x1 for first time offenders and 3x1 for second timers, since that would mean that every ref in every field should be aware of the previous violations made by any player.

3x1 first time, and out of here the second. Or just out of here the first time... if the rule is clearly worded there is no excuse to not play by it.


EDIT :Typos

 

[Wadidiz]

Very good points Nick and the wording is getting better. This obviously requires more study and I hope Manike will comment, especially on the semi-only part.

Both you and JotajotaZ have good points about tracking offenses. I think a system ought to be set up for keeping statistics of penalties (among other things).

I'm not sure that the penalties should be individual however.