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PSP's new 15 BPS rule

Wadidiz

EnHaNcE tHa TrAnCe
Jul 9, 2002
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Originally posted by Booya39
I think these rules are the equivalent of giving in.

I think that if something must be done then capping it is the answer, but allowing ramping is definitely not the answer.
Still waiting for any realistic proposal to solve this problem that won't result in what you've experienced. Because we'll still have the headache of trying to enforce semi-only.
 

gaff

www.hired-killaz.com
Mar 12, 2003
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'in ya face baby!'
i'm sorry guys but is it me being thick ? or are all thoese against the rules set out above burying you heads in the sand (or sommat similiar!)

can you honestly not recall the numerous occasions last season when whilst standing watching players on field with 25+bps machine guns getting pulled, then the marshall not being able to reselect the obvious modes that have been used? hell i can even recall a statement from Steve saying "i know what he is doing but i physically cannot prove it, cos every time i get hold of the gun its back in default mode!"

frankly i am fed up the the eye teeth of getting beaten by teams that technically aint good enough to clean our kit, but machine gun us to oblivion with cheat modes.

and i firmly belive the only way to combat this is to adopt a set of rules as steve is suggesting

although i do agree with the worries about the measuring the time between two shots as opposed to against shots per second
 

PaintballChannel

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Mar 27, 2002
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3.5. A marker may fire at a maximum rate of fifteen balls per second.
Ok. No problems here. Nice rule to keep the overshooting down.

3.5.1. A player on the field of play during a game whose marker shoots more than one paintball within 60 milliseconds will receive a gross penalty.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but 60x15=900, which leaves 100 milliseconds, and technically a player is allowed to shoot "a paintball" in 60 milliseconds, which leaves 40 milliseconds still left over...almost enough time for a third shot based on their rules.

So, if they are measuring the time between TWO shots as their "rule", then there's going to be a LOT of teams with a LOT of penalties.

3.6. A marker may fire no more than three shots per press and release of the trigger, and no more than three shots between presses of the trigger. A player who carries a marker onto the field of play that fires more than three shots per press and release of the trigger, or more than three shots between two presses of the trigger, will receive a gross penalty and a minor suspension.
So six shot bursts (via 3-shot in/3-shot out) are now legal?

3.7. A marker that has not been fired within the previous second may fire no more than one shot per press and release of the trigger until after the marker has been fired three times. A player who caries a marker onto the field of play that will fire more than one shot per press and release of the trigger before the marker is fired three times will receive a gross penalty and a minor suspension.
So, you can use the six-shot burst after you have shot three times?

3.8. A marker with settings, whether mechanical, pneumatic, or electronic, that may be adjusted without the use of tools to allow the marker to operate in an illegal manner is illegal. A player who operates buttons, switches, valves or other adjustable device on a marker on the field of play without the permission of a judge will be assessed a minor penalty. The team of a player who operates buttons, switches, valves or other adjustable device on a marker on the field of play after being instructed to provide the marker to an official, or prior to being instructed to do so, will receive a gross penalty and that player will receive a minor suspension.
Ok, well, that about wipes out EVERY marker out there....EVERY marker is adjustable...especially the electronic ones.

The simple solution to this is:
One shot per trigger pull. Period.

If I shoot 15 times, 15 paintballs should come out of the marker.

Anyone who needs enhanced modes to win shouldn't be playing tournament paintball in the first place and should consider going back to woods play.

And, marker manufacturers need to stop making chips that enable cheat modes. Yes, I know, "they don't exist"...yeah, right...I've seen em on the fields in action. But then again, the more shots fired, the more paintballs used, and the more money the paint manufacturers make.

The skill isn't in shooting 25BPS, because if you can shoot 25BPS, and it takes you several hundred rounds to hit someone, then you need to reconsider your position in paintball. The REAL skill is getting the other player(s) out in the LEAST number of shots.
 

PaintballChannel

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Mar 27, 2002
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3.11. Any person possessing a marker that is attached to an air source, does not have a barrel sock properly installed over the end of the barrel, is not at a designated chronograph station being chronographed and is not on the field of play during, in the 10 seconds prior to, or immediately after a game, will be assessed a minor penalty.
So, if I'm walking around with a marker, I can be assessed with a penalty...even if I'm not playing? :rolleyes:

This rule is a bit confusing to say the least.

Is it supposed to be an all in one rule? Or, are there multiple parts to it?

3.13. Any player whose marker has been modified from the manufacturer’s original form to disguise its mode of operation or to allow the player to change the mode of operation on the field without the use of tools will receive a major suspension.
Doesn't this nullify 3.8 or make 3.8 a Major Suspension?
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
It's late, it's long, so if I missed anything . . .

Originally posted by Wadidiz
The new, much debated, marker rule has just been added to PSP's rulebook (from PSP's website):

_____________________________
A---3.5. A marker may fire at a maximum rate of fifteen balls per second.
B---3.5.1. A player on the field of play during a game whose marker shoots more than one paintball within 60 milliseconds will receive a gross penalty.
3.5.2. A player on the field of play during a game whose marker shoots more than one paintball within 65 milliseconds will be assessed a minor penalty.
C---3.5.3. A player who carries a marker onto the field of play that can shoot more than one paintball within 60 milliseconds will receive a gross penalty and a minor suspension.
D---3.6. A marker may fire no more than three shots per press and release of the trigger, and no more than three shots between presses of the trigger. A player who carries a marker onto the field of play that fires more than three shots per press and release of the trigger, or more than three shots between two presses of the trigger, will receive a gross penalty and a minor suspension.
E---3.7. A marker that has not been fired within the previous second may fire no more than one shot per press and release of the trigger until after the marker has been fired three times. A player who caries a marker onto the field of play that will fire more than one shot per press and release of the trigger before the marker is fired three times will receive a gross penalty and a minor suspension.

F--- The rate will be measured by the shortest time between two shots. Players whose markers have no electronic components and fire no more than one shot per press and release of the trigger will not be penalized under 3.5. (If you have a mechanical marker and your trigger is slightly sloppy, but you never fire faster than 65 ms between shots, you’re ok.

G---If you have a mechanical marker that sometimes fires faster than 65 ms between shots and your trigger is absolutely, positively, no-slop-whatsoever semi-auto, you’re ok. If you have a bouncy trigger and exceed 15 bps you’ll be penalized.)

Timer reading of 60 milliseconds or less. (16.7 bps)

Timer reading of 66 milliseconds is ok, 65 is not. (15.2 bps)

H---Markers will be checked before/after game play. There will be no penalty due to this rule if the only way to get a marker to fire faster than 16.7 bps is to actually pull the trigger faster than 16.7 bps. This penalty is in addition to any in-game penalties, so if a player is pulled for breaking the limit in the game, and then the marker is checked after the game and found to shoot faster than 60 ms between shots, the player will get an additional gross penalty.

I---Shots may not be buffered past trigger pulls – if you pull the trigger, the marker fires, and you pull the trigger again, the marker may only fire three more times, not five.

J---If the trigger is pulled one, two or three times, the marker may fire no more than the number of times the trigger is pulled. The marker may fire up to three balls per pull after that. If the marker is not fired for a second, the trigger must again be pulled three times before the marker may fire more than one shot per pull.

K---Essentially, anything that can adjust velocity, shot mode, de-bounce, etc, must be locked-down so it can’t be changed on the field.
Let me say off the top I approve of the ideas behind these rules and the need for something like this, at this point in time. I think it's broadly the right approach but I have real doubts about these specific rules as written.
A--cool so far.
B--this suggests--and in fact means--that the time between any two shots must be in keeping with the 15 bps cap. (More on this in a second.) And that--in addition to on field penalties makes the user liable to additional penalty after the fact.
C--the distinction made in 3.5.3 is one of potential, not actuality. That means it is possible for you to be penalized and suspended if your gun is determined to be capable of being in violation of the rules whether you were or not in actual practice. (Just how is that to be determined?)
I'm guessing this is included primarily because of the remaining fear of circumventing these rules during play using coded, programmable cheats. This in effect comes close to requiring a PSP compliant board.
D--this is simply unclear while trying to cover every possible base. More with the "capability" and which is it--3 shots for each press and release or 3 shots between to two presses? In order to press the trigger the second time you had to release it once, right? Unless the between refers to some degree of bounce in which case it better not actuate faster than every 66 milliseconds.
E--This is a conditional requirement and is more sloppy writing. The intent seems to be similar to the NXL requirement but isn't clear particularly given the preceding rules. What it means to say is that upon initial activation or any time thereafter when there is a lapse in firing of a second or more the gun will revert to the three single shot sequence. But it doesn't say that and just adds to the potential confusion. Nor, of course, is this relevant if the gun in question is semi only--unless it's "capable" of bounce in which case it's potentially in violation--though that too isn't (I presume) the spirit of the rule--but the letter.
F--this is the wrong way to do it for a number of reasons particularly if you're gonna allow for as many methods as possible. It should be an average over a range of shots, say 5-7 minimum. Otherwise, lots of markers may readily fall into the "faster than allowed" category not on the basis of actual, sustained ROF but on the basis of a fractional measurement. As has been noted many times elsewhere lots of markers registered misleading ROF values using the same standard and now players are to be penalized using this same standard? It seems ill-advised. There is also the question as to whether or not this means of measurement refers only to mechanical trigger guns since that is the other reference in this subhead of 3.7. I don't believe that to be the intent however. Note too, that it is a MECHANICAL trigger gun. This does not, as I read it, include any electronically actuated triggers of any sort.
G--What exactly is the concern over slop with a purely mechanical trigger? (And what is the definition of 'slop' for purposes of rules interpretation?)
H--If there is a cap how does a marker fire faster than the cap unless it's illegal by rule? And if such a semi-only gun isn't illegal how come the player can be pulled during the game (but not penalized as well after the fact)?
I--what this amounts to is NO BUFFERING but since the new rules allow quasi-ramping or burst fire modes any marker will be judged to be buffering if it fires in a manner outside the rules. This may, in fact, not actually be buffering but since some element of ramping is okay they can't really tell in ordinary legal use.
J--adds some clarity to E but why is stated and then restated, and in neither instance plainly?
K--how does one lock down a button, or a sequence of trigger pulls?

Most of the problems here arise from, 1) the effort to avoid the F/A tag and, 2) the lack of precision in the writing of the rules. There are simply capabilities that cannot be controlled which is why the cap is necessary yet these rules seem to try and split the difference and (in my initial judgment anyway) aren't doing much but changing one set of problems for another. Hopefully that won't prove to be the case.

As for what I'd do differently. First, change the method of measuring ROF. Second, I'd make it a hard cap and I wouldn't much care how they got there so long as the cap isn't exceeded. The reason I wouldn't care is because the existing electronic shenanigans can't be monitored at this point in time. Any rules that try to accommodate or hedge the currently uncontrollable is a pointless complication, possibly exchanges old problems for new ones and invariably leaves room for maneuvering in and around the rules as written. Check for obvious, excessive and therefore unsafe bounce and properly enforce a hard cap and that is the best you can do. It isn't ideal but it offers the nearest practical thing to a level playing field.
 

sjt19

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May 23, 2002
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Originally posted by PaintballChannel
So, if I'm walking around with a marker, I can be assessed with a penalty...even if I'm not playing? :rolleyes:
Seems fair enough to me mate. That rule exists in the MS as well. Its designed to stop people wandering round with a gun that is unplugged and representing a safety risk to people on site. Whats so hard to understand? There may be a ball still in the breach, which could be fired if the player has forgotten to turn off the gun. Why would a player ever need to be wandering round with a gun un socked with an air system on it?
 

manike

INCEPTIONDESIGNS.COM
Jul 9, 2001
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My comments

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Bla. bla. bla....... someone please explain the necessity for the rule being based on timing between two shots - and not shots per second....
Certainly, since you asked so nicely. :p

The time between two shots IS a rate measurement and thus the shots per second. It's the same thing. For a rate you don't need to measure over a full second, just ANY interval of time and ANY number of events.

Measuring the time between two shots is the simplest and easiest rate measurement to give you shots per second.

The best way to measure it for any electronic device is the time between two shots. I have no issue with what they are doing there...

If you then want to average that out over a few shots, that's ok (I wouldn't) but you have to measure it between two shots to get a consistent decent value in my opinion.

As for the rest of the rule... nice try, but it's over complicated and I can already see difficutlies in implementation.

As far as I read, I can shoot with ramping up to the limit, and if I can prove I can shoot faster I can go over that limit. I'd get pulled, but not penalised after the fact. That's stupid. Set a limit or don't.

If you are going to allow me to shoot over the limit if I can prove I legally can (which I can) and not penalise me, why can't I prove I can do it before hand and then do it during the game?

I promise to bring a CRO and hook up to my gun to show it! :D

Very silly inclusion to the rule.

I could write software that will allow me to ramp to the limit but if ever I shoot legally with my fingers over the limit it allows those two shots to come out of the gun faster.

For me, that reads, within the rules... would be a nightmare to police, and cause me to get pulled from the game even with a gun that is allowed within the rules.

This part "There will be no penalty due to this rule if the only way to get a marker to fire faster than 16.7 bps is to actually pull the trigger faster than 16.7 bps" is stupid, because people can pull the trigger twice to be that fast. They can only do it for two shots in a row, but it is possible when measuring between just two shots.

So if you only get one shot that fast, and someone can show they can pull one shot that fast (which they can) then they are around the penalty. duh.

Nice try, but not good enough. :(
 

Booya39

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Jul 15, 2003
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Originally posted by gaff
i'm sorry guys but is it me being thick ? or are all thoese against the rules set out above burying you heads in the sand (or sommat similiar!)

can you honestly not recall the numerous occasions last season when whilst standing watching players on field with 25+bps machine guns getting pulled, then the marshall not being able to reselect the obvious modes that have been used? hell i can even recall a statement from Steve saying "i know what he is doing but i physically cannot prove it, cos every time i get hold of the gun its back in default mode!"
Originally posted by Wadidiz
Still waiting for any realistic proposal to solve this problem that won't result in what you've experienced. Because we'll still have the headache of trying to enforce semi-only.
Let me start by saying that putting a 15bps CAP is a great idea for the current situation. No, I don't really like it because I feel I can shoot more than 15bps but it's a good answer to the current problem. The cap has now made it less advantageous to use a cheat mode, so why now ALLOW ramping??? Sure it's hard to catch them but by them trying to use a cheat (with the 15bps cap) they have jeopardized their team's ability to play with a full roster to gain a ball per second or two. Before it was a risk that many people took b/c they could gain 5 to 10 bps which makes a huge difference in a game when compared to 1 or 2.

Instead of saying "well since we can't enforce it, we'll just make it legal" is illogical, among other things.