Welcome To P8ntballer.com
The Home Of European Paintball
Sign Up & Join In

PSP's new 15 BPS rule

Chicago

New Member
Jan 31, 2005
1,380
0
0
Visit site
The shot buffering is off - don't say "no more than the number of manual trigger pulls", as I could then legally pull my trigger 20 times while behind my bunker, then snap out, and have the marker shoot 20 times.

Don't even say anything about shot buffering. Say:

- No more than one paintball may be fired per press and release of the trigger.

- No more than one paintball may be fired between two presses of the trigger.

That takes care of 3, 4 and 5, allows shots to be buffered (in the case o the paintball not being there yet), but doesn't let shots be buffered past trigger pulls. (pull, pause, shot, pull, shot is ok; pull, pause, pull, shot, shot is not.)
 

shamu

Tonight we dine in hell
Apr 17, 2002
835
0
0
Now-Cal
Shamu

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
In principle I agree - but after all the problems last year, I would prefer relatively mild penalties at first - but ones that will still cost you games - and the screw can then be tightened when we have proof of concept.

We definitely do NOT want another "Toulouse" this year, with SO many players banned - most of them probably without having any intention of cheating.

Nick
From everything I heard about Toulouse, the marker checking was way out of hand. However, Malaga seemed to be better. Ramping up the penalty during the season (pun intended) might be a good compromise.

I don't think conditional penalties are a good idea. In theory it's fine. However, with everything the refs have to keep track of this would be one more thing to get lost in the shuffle. One consistent penalty for all infractions makes more sense and is easier to apply. All you need is to have the second offense misapplied in one game and you have a really ugly situation.
 

Wadidiz

EnHaNcE tHa TrAnCe
Jul 9, 2002
1,619
0
0
73
Stockholm, EU
Visit site
Shamu

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
We definitely do NOT want another "Toulouse" this year, with SO many players banned - most of them probably without having any intention of cheating.
Although this is not the point of this thread that statement is total and absolute bull**** even if you were there observing. I investigated most, if not all, of the illegal gun suspensions and queried all the head field judges and players about what they did and found that MAYBE one or two were not totally justified.

The primary reason for so many of the suspensions can be compared to when the police suddenly put up some surprise controls in some 70 kph zone when most drivers are used to going 100 unpunished, except that in this case it was announced and seen from the previous tournaments that we were cracking down. Many players either didn't know how to get their markers into compliance or didn't try to and it was made clear that it was solely THEIR responsibility to do so just like it is to make sure their markers stay under 301 FPS.

And sure, we didn't do everything perfectly and we successively improved our procedures, communication and consistency as the season went on.

The main point that is germaine to this thread is that despite all our efforts the sophisticated cheaters kept on--at Toulouse and at all the other tournaments--because the semiauto rule at this point in time is absolutely unenforceable as you have admitted. The fiasco and charade will only continue if we absolutely insist on continuing with demanding and trying to enforce true semiauto, even if we have a ROF cap.
 

Nick Brockdorff

New Member
Jul 9, 2001
588
0
0
www.uglyducklings.dk
Steve

Although this is not the point of this thread that statement is total and absolute bull**** even if you were there observing. I investigated most, if not all, of the illegal gun suspensions and queried all the head field judges and players about what they did and found that MAYBE one or two were not totally justified.
I am sure you are right Steve.

But my point is that most of the paintball community had a very unclear idea of what bounce really was - if any at all - and although most of the players were apparently in breach of the new rules in Toulouse, I'd wager that by far most of them had no idea - and were shooting standard guns in standard setup, without any intent whatsoever to "cheat".

I am aware that intent is not everything.... but when you introduce a new rule, that both refs and players (and not least manufacturers) have to get used to, it is a good idea to allow for a grace period.

Banning a player from a whole event, because he is shooting a standard gun in a standar setup is a bit harsh.

Let's let everyone get accustomed to the new rules, and understand them completely, before we go shooting sparrows with cannon ;)

I appreciate you sticking up for your refs, but I hope you can agree that of all the people "caught" in Toulouse, probably a very small percentage had any idea they were using illegal equipment?

Nick
 

Wadidiz

EnHaNcE tHa TrAnCe
Jul 9, 2002
1,619
0
0
73
Stockholm, EU
Visit site
Steve

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
I am sure you are right Steve.
At the risk of sounding arrogant, yes I am. ;)
Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
But my point is that most of the paintball community had a very unclear idea of what bounce really was -
That's why all tournaments worth their salt have something called a captains' meeting and we were very explicit about what we were looking for and how we would test for it. Perhaps more captains ought to attend the meetings.:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
most of the players were apparently in breach of the new rules
NEW RULES? Those rules have been in effect since the inception of the original NPPL and since the beginning of the Millennium Series, namely, semiauto only. A gun that substantially produces more than one shot for every trigger activation (that is double-discharges more than once every five or six shots as we said in the meetings) or bursts is not semiauto and is unsafe.
Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
in Toulouse, I'd wager that by far most of them had no idea - and were shooting standard guns in standard setup, without any intent whatsoever to "cheat".
This goes back to the team captains' responsibility to attend the captains' meetings and their responsibility to comply with the rules which were further clarified in the meetings. The problem was that many wanted to keep their markers too close to the edge of excessive bouncing and thereby often went over the line of legality.
Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
I am aware that intent is not everything.... but when you introduce a new rule, that both refs and players (and not least manufacturers) have to get used to, it is a good idea to allow for a grace period.
What a joke! Any team should have been aware that we had clearly drawn a line against the exploding illegal gun problem at Maxs Masters and Camp Masters. It's hard to imagine what things would have been like if we hadn't taken a tough stance because, despite our efforts, there were plenty of machine guns we couldn't catch.
Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Banning a player from a whole event, because he is shooting a standard gun in a standar setup is a bit harsh.
You're kidding? A standard gun setup is one that complies with the decade-old rules and isn't excessively bouncy or uses cheating modes.
Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Let's let everyone get accustomed to the new rules, and understand them completely, before we go shooting sparrows with cannon ;)

I appreciate you sticking up for your refs, but I hope you can agree that of all the people "caught" in Toulouse, probably a very small percentage had any idea they were using illegal equipment?
Again, that was THEIR responsibility. If you push the envelope too far you're going to get busted when the authorities decide to enforce the rules, which we CLEARLY announced and showed we would, and it was about time we got the problem of illegal equipment under control. As an analogy, I'm used to driving about 20 kph over the limit on occasion in Sweden because almost everyone else does. When I got a 2000 NOK fine for driving 84 in a 70 zone in Norway of course I was pissed and I still feel the fine was overkill. But can I reasonably argue with them about it?

The promoter and I knew that enforcement of the gun rules was going to cause some hardship on the ones who didn't take their responsibilities seriously enough and the promoter was totally behind our efforts well before the tournament.

We were able to catch and penalize excessive bounciness and by the end of the season we learned how to catch more and more of the guns with electronic cheats. But the bounce-test will always be open to accusations of subjectivity and most of the electronic cheats will go unpunished---as long as we have an unenforceable rule. And that must end.
 

Intheno

People's Supermod
Sep 18, 2003
688
0
0
Chicago (South Side)
Visit site
what?
Jim Drew calls the insurance into question and you are ready to go back to the drawing board, and yet you all 'poo-pooed' my continual psts expressing the exact same thing.

You guys crack me up!
 

Wadidiz

EnHaNcE tHa TrAnCe
Jul 9, 2002
1,619
0
0
73
Stockholm, EU
Visit site
Originally posted by Intheno
...you are ready to go back to the drawing board, and yet you all 'poo-pooed' my continual psts expressing the exact same thing.
Dr No, I didn't say we definitely needed to start over, just might. (And, again, I'm talking about my personal proposals). And I NEVER poo-pooed your posts.

It's all good, that is these discussions. I think you're like me (I hope): you want real, workable solutions. And nobody has come up with really workable solutions, definitely not NPPL yet.

And the release by WAS has some very interesting points but EVERYTHING must be approached with healthy skepticism.