PSP's new 15 BPS rule

[Chicago]

Originally posted by Booya39
Before it was a risk that many people took b/c they could gain 5 to 10 bps which makes a huge difference in a game when compared to 1 or 2.

Instead of saying "well since we can't enforce it, we'll just make it legal" is illogical, among other things.

What's illogical about that? Wouldn't it be more illogical to have a rule you can't enforce? Draw a linein the sand in front of an advancing army and then defend it with a twig?

At 15 bps, most people will still gain 5+ bps. I think you underestimate just how bad most people are at pulling the trigger legally.

The rules may be a little exception-laden due to how soon the rule is being released prior to the event to accomodate people who had legal markers before not getting screwed over because they can't get updated before LA. Hopefully some of that will go away for Orlando.

 

[Booya39]

Maybe there are too many politics involved to get this solved. Typical.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Simon !

Nice of you to drop by - Steve was pulling non-existing hairs out of his head

The time between two shots IS a rate measurement and thus the shots per second. It's the same thing. For a rate you don't need to measure over a full second, just ANY interval of time and ANY number of events.

Measuring the time between two shots is the simplest and easiest rate measurement to give you shots per second.

Obviously I agree - sound theory.

But, my issue with doing it that way still is, that to my knowledge most people pull the trigger in a fashion so erratic, that a number of trigger pulls may be spaced shorter than 65MS - despite their firerate being below 15.

Am I wrong in making that assumption? (obviously you have better access to empirical info than me on this subject)

If I am right in my assumption - won't meassuring and penalising the SHORTEST space between any two shots mean, that a LOT of players risk being penalised despite actually shooting no more than 12-13-14 BPS (per SECOND being the key phrase here )??

Nick

 

[manike]

Simon !

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Obviously I agree - sound theory.

But, my issue with doing it that way still is, that to my knowledge most people pull the trigger in a fashion so erratic, that a number of trigger pulls may be spaced shorter than 65MS - despite their firerate being below 15.

Am I wrong in making that assumption? (obviously you have better access to empirical info than me on this subject)

If I am right in my assumption - won't meassuring and penalising the SHORTEST space between any two shots mean, that a LOT of players risk being penalised despite actually shooting no more than 12-13-14 BPS (per SECOND being the key phrase here )??

Nick

Nick you keep confusing rates.

12-13-14bps is a rate. Doesn't matter how many shots were made to get that rate, it's a rate, and a very accurate set definition.

If you want to say "someone might be penalised for shooting at an average of 12-13-14bps when measured over a second", then you would be right.

If you wanted to say "someone might be penalised for shooting at 12-13-14bps"you would be wrong. They wouldn't be penalised until they shot over 15.* bps.

But who cares? Why take an average? I'd stick with the current measurement. It's one less thing to become a cluster ^&*%.

I agree with using the time between two shots.

Now you are also absolutely correct when you say that people may hit the trigger a couple of times that 'could the gun react quick enough' would allow a rof faster than allowed.

But all guns buffer shots. If you don't buffer shots as your fingers pull quicker than a set value (or how fast the gun can cycle) your actual rof would go down...

So in those rare circumstances when people do pull faster, the gun buffers the shot. Normally the gun would fire as soon as a ball becomes available, but with the simple addition of a delay you can set the gun to fire that shot as soon as it can to meet the correct rof limit.

The guns will HAVE to buffer a shot, just like they do now. Just when that shot is fired will change. Easy (ish) adjustment from what we have now.

"won't meassuring and penalising the SHORTEST space between any two shots mean, that a LOT of players risk being penalised:

No, if the gun is set up with the right delays and software.

YES, if people go out with guns and software that they have right now, without increasing a dwell or time delay to slow down the time between two shots.

I think most current gun adjustment software has enough adjustable delay settings that you could tweek any current software to be legal.

You just might need a "robot" (nothing complex) to put them on to check.

Simple check and robot.

1) Run a cam (shaped bit of plastic) in an electric drill against the trigger, ensuring shot pulls far faster than 15bps.

2) Measure rof between any two shots.

3) Increase delays until rof between two shots never goes over set limit.

Delays that you could increase include dwell (not the best idea) bolt open time, stand off time, bolt delay etc. Depending on the gun type.

As for mechanical guns... just ensure no runaway reactive triggers and you will be fine. So no runaway RT's, Tippmans, or Boston Reflex autocockers.

 

[Ben Frain]

I'm curious, could somebody post a sound clip or even better, a video clip of what a 15BPS under this limit will look/soundlike?

Would probably allay many people's fears (or perhaps accentuate them)!

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Simon

Ahhh - we absolutely agree now.... you see..... what is being proposed here in Europe, is at set of rules that makes it illegal to "store" shots (which you call "buffer"), in conjunction with imposing a "BPS limit" to be enforced by measuring the time between any two shots..... and my concern then is, that that will drop firing rates to way below 15 BPS (which is the intention of the rule)

No stored shots (never more than one shot within 150ms of trigger release)

Obviously this is the wrong thread for it... but this is where you replied..... so there you go

Now - as I have said all along... if buffering (or storing as it were) is allowed, THEN I have absolutely no problem with the measured value being the interval between two shots.

If buffering is NOT.... then I have a big problem with the proposed rules and methods of enforcement.

BTW.... Just as a point of semantics.... when a "rate" is defined as being "balls per second" - then obviously measuring should reflect "balls per second" - which by default has to be an average...... not the time between two shots (apples and oranges)

Nick

 

[manike]

Simon

If they don't allow the storage of a trigger pull within the cycle time of the gun (or within the delayed time for the cycle to be at the correct rate) then your rof will drop through the floor, and no decent electronic gun made in the last 3-4 years will be allowed on the field.

I believe what they meant is that you can't have 2 shots left over from the last trigger pull, added to 2 shots from the next and then having 4 come out after you finished pulling the trigger.

If they meant the first point, then it's very silly.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
BTW.... Just as a point of semantics.... when a "rate" is defined as being "balls per second" - then obviously measuring should reflect "balls per second" - which by default has to be an average...... not the time between two shots (apples and oranges)

Please, please tell me that you aren't really this STUPID, and that it's actually because English isn't your first language that you made such a stupid statement.

You can come up with a rate depending on the time for a single full event, in this case BPS. There is no need for an average of multiple events. If you are looking at an average you are measuring something else (average BPS). You are measuring an average rate as compared to an instantaneous rate. Both are BPS, they are NOT the same.

In this case the single event measured is the period between two shots. It gives you a rate in "balls per second".

You know the time for that, you know the rate for the two shots fired, in "BPS".

You don't have to have more than two shots to get the rate.

Ask Goose to teach you some statistics. (BTW what happened to him?)

 

[Baca Loco]

But Simon--

Originally posted by manike
1--If they don't allow the storage of a trigger pull within the cycle time of the gun (or within the delayed time for the cycle to be at the correct rate) then your rof will drop through the floor, and no decent electronic gun made in the last 3-4 years will be allowed on the field.

I believe what they meant is that you can't have 2 shots left over from the last trigger pull, added to 2 shots from the next and then having 4 come out after you finished pulling the trigger.

If they meant the first point, then it's very silly.

2--You can come up with a rate depending on the time for a single full event, in this case BPS. There is no need for an average of multiple events. If you are looking at an average you are measuring something else (average BPS). You are measuring an average rate as compared to an instantaneous rate. Both are BPS, they are NOT the same.

In this case the single event measured is the period between two shots. It gives you a rate in "balls per second".

You know the time for that, you know the rate for the two shots fired, in "BPS".

You don't have to have more than two shots to get the rate.

Ask Goose to teach you some statistics. (BTW what happened to him?)

1--at a minimum then it certainly isn't clear precisely what they meant and that is a problem, wouldn't you say?
2--doesn't your rate calculation using one measurement (between any two shots) assume that the measurement taken is consistent with all other likely measurements? Otherwise, your calculated bps would be invalid, wouldn't it?
And don't the PSP rules, as written, suggest their intent is to allow for as many ways of operating as possible; ie: some added shots from whatever form of bounce all the way to burst/ramping guns with a programmable hard cap?
If that is their intention they will come up against plenty of guns where a single measurement isn't given a true value--particularly if their version of buffering isn't yours. Yes? No?

My issue, insofar as I understand the technology and interpret the rules, is that in trying to create an all-inclusive set of new rules with assorted qualifiers the measurement method is going to fail guns that in actual game use won't exceed the cap.

 

[manike]

But Simon--

Originally posted by Baca Loco
My issue, insofar as I understand the technology and interpret the rules, is that in trying to create an all-inclusive set of new rules with assorted qualifiers the measurement method is going to fail guns that in actual game use meet won't exceed the cap.

I agree it will fail guns that weren't previously an issue, depending on your definition of the cap.

They have tried to make an all inclusive rule which is hard to understand and implement.

Originally posted by Baca Loco
1--at a minimum then it certainly isn't clear precisely what they meant and that is a problem, wouldn't you say?

Yes.

Originally posted by Baca Loco
one measurement (between any two shots) assume that the measurement taken is consistent with all other likely measurements?

Not sure I get your point.

The cap is set. Doesn't matter if your gun is inconsistent or not, if it breaks the cap, it breaks the cap.

If the cap is 15bps for a whole second. Does that mean it should be ok for me to do 14bps in the first half of the second and then 1 shot at the end of the measured second? In effect my gun will be faster than anything seen yet, but would still pass any 'average over a second rule'.

I could set up a gun to do 3 round bursts at 25bps and then slow down enough to bring the gun below the 'average allowed' when measured for a defined length of time.

THE ONLY way to stop people taking the piss is to measure the time between two shots.

If you set me a rule that said no higher than 15bps measure over a second.

I'd give you a gun shooting just as fast as we have now, but that only sustained that for half second bursts. Or whatever. Then it would slow down.. and ramp back up again, simply making sure it never did 15 shots in a rolling second period. You wouldn't have achieved as much with your rule.

For small periods of time, snap shooting, or start of a lane etc. It would be as fast as my loader could feed it. But it would fit under your rule.

Is that what we want? If so fine. Measure over a full second and use the average...

As soon as you bring the number down (say less than 3 shots) to stop my advantage you might as well just measure between two shots.

Any time you want to make an average measurement I can make a burst mode that gives me a higher (much higher) instantaneous rof but that fits below your average.

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Otherwise, your calculated bps would be invalid, wouldn't it?

Measuring between two shots, is in my opion, the only way the calculated BPS WOULDN'T be invalid.

Originally posted by Baca Loco
And don't the PSP rules, as written, suggest their intent is to allow for as many ways of operating as possible; ie: some added shots from whatever form of bounce all the way to burst/raping guns with a programmable hard cap?

I think so. But they haven't achieved it.

Originally posted by Baca Loco
If that is their intention they will come up against plenty of guns where a single measurement isn't given a true value--particularly if their version of buffering isn't yours. Yes? No?

No.

A single measurement is giving an EXACT true measurement.

Averaging it out wouldn't be.

Same with any rate.

Speed limit is 70mph.

I drive my vette at 30mph for an 59 minutes and 30 seconds, and then at 198mph for 30 seconds.

Did I break the speed limit?

Not by the way Nick wants to look at it. But yes by the law.

Now the other question is whether measuring a single measurement is fair, and should people be penalised for a single infraction. That's a different discussion.

Should you be allowed to cross the limit once per 10 shots? once per 100 shots?

I say NO.

Set a limit. Measure it. Enforce it.

No breaking the limit. Under any circumstances.

People can set up any electronic gun to fit below the limit.

If they want to ride the fine line and keep the best advantage then they will have to buy a new board or upgrade their existing gun's software (sorry SP customers).

 

[manike]

If the cap is no shots closer together than 65ms, whats so hard to understand about that?

It's simple.

It's easy to measure (for players and refs).

It's non-negotiable.

Easy for the software guys.

No grey area.

It's the best 'start' of a rule I've seen in a long time.