Oooooh!! Dynasty FA Scandal!!

[manike]

Who's in charge?

Consumers making a demand? or manufacturers supplying it?

Rules are only as good as the people making them and the ability to enforce them.

That's why it infuriates me when people try to make stupid rules that can not be enforced, or that won't be enforced. It's insane.

You can't blame anyone for doing the maximum they can within the rules. You can for them breaking the rules or not enforcing them though.

Who says the players are following the lead?

Do you think the first cheater board came from a manufacturer or a player?

Do you think the first cheating was because of equipment allowing it or players finding a way to do it?

People and players will always find a way to cheat.

 

[Robbo]

Si - it matters not whether the chicken comes first or the egg, fact is, the egg gets laid (which is more than I can say for Bowen)

 

[jahlad]

Simon ?

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
If the ROF was capped at - say 12 (just as an example) - what incentive would there be for cheat software (except for ramping) ?

BTW - why is capping the ROF gay ?

MOST players can't shoot more than 12 BPS effectively anyway..... so I really don't see the problem ?

Nick

here we go again!!!!!
*ok in theory we cap the rof.....ok
*ok then imagine im a naughty player who is willing to cheat
*ill give you my marker to test.....and it passes its shooting a perfect 11.5 bps full auto
*then i walk onto the field and secretly activate the cheat cycle/mode/button/switch/gizmo on my marker that turns it up to 18 bps and you wont have a clue because by the time a ref looks at it it will be doing 11.5 again

how would i do this undetected......theres thousands of ways, using coded software, a daugther board in the marker a hidden switch....the posibilities are endless....infact all or most of the ways to make a semi go FA could be addapted with no brain work at all.

capped rof would only lead to new ways to cheat and a new rule to break.

 

[manike]

Simon ?

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
If the ROF was capped at - say 12 (just as an example) - what incentive would there be for cheat software (except for ramping) ?

BTW - why is capping the ROF gay ?

MOST players can't shoot more than 12 BPS effectively anyway..... so I really don't see the problem ?

Nick

What incentive are there now?

Same incentives will always be there.

As a cheating player do you want a cap at 12 (or whatever) and have to work at getting that 12bps or do you want to be able to hit that 12 every single time very easily, whether crawling the snake with one hand (this is amazing to watch with NXL teams. ) or while running out on the break?

Therefore the cheats will still have software that ramps the rof upto whatever limit you set so they can hit it easily whenever and however they want.

So what did you just do to stop the cheats?

Nothing. The cheats will still cheat.

Capping rof does nothing except taking away the advantage from people who have genuinely worked to be able to shoot faster than other people.

Shooting fast and consistently when running out or crawling is a tough skill. Whether there is an unlimited cap or an 8bps cap the people that cheat will still do so in order to make it easier for them.

And if the cheats want to make their software FA or increase the velocity they will still do that. Limiting the ROF doesn't stop that in any way shape or form does it?

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by manike
People and players will always find a way to cheat.

So let's skip the rules nonsense altogether. Oh wait, let's keep the one that says if you get hit and paint breaks you're out and that's it. Can't get much simpler than that. I think most everyone will agree that rule should stay. Everything else is fair game cus we can't do anything about it anyway. Since every attempt to constrain the excesses is doomed to failure quit trying and go with the flow. This way nobody is forced to make any hard decisions and nobody will suffer any unfairly stringent penalties and with nothing to call but eliminations the refs will get it right what, about half the time?

I think maybe we're gonna need better netting though.

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
So let's skip the rules nonsense altogether. Oh wait, let's keep the one that says if you get hit and paint breaks you're out and that's it. Can't get much simpler than that. I think most everyone will agree that rule should stay. Everything else is fair game cus we can't do anything about it anyway. Since every attempt to constrain the excesses is doomed to failure quit trying and go with the flow. This way nobody is forced to make any hard decisions and nobody will suffer any unfairly stringent penalties and with nothing to call but eliminations the refs will get it right what, about half the time?

I think maybe we're gonna need better netting though.

Plus thicker lenses, mandatory chin-straps and head protection.

 

[Wadidiz]

The device that Nick was talking about needs to come out. This should be supplied by the judging organization and connectable to a standard interface that can measure velocity and ROF against actual trigger cycle activation. These marker control devices (MCD) would need to be stringently maintained and calibrated. After being attached to the muzzles, at the point of exceeding any number of parameters a governor kicks in.

I also think we should include a deactivating switch that could be remotely deployed by a ref. For example, as a ref, as soon as you see your player get hit you turn his gun off. Ditto you see him starting to clearly shoot with "enhancement"; turn it off, take it for inspection.

Meanwhile, The Robot, video recording, scrutineers and I think we can put a dent in it.

 

[Booya39]

Originally posted by Wadidiz
Plus thicker lenses, mandatory chin-straps and head protection.

that should be optional. the stupid people will be weeded out that way.

 

[Booya39]

Originally posted by Wadidiz
I also think we should include a deactivating switch that could be remotely deployed by a ref. For example, as a ref, as soon as you see your player get hit you turn his gun off. Ditto you see him starting to clearly shoot with "enhancement"; turn it off, take it for inspection.

Next thing you know a ref will accidently turn off the wrong palyers gun. Now what do you do? Tell them "Oops, our mistake. Better luck next time." ????

Wait, we already do that with the calls now, just not with the same verbal confirmation.

 

[Joern Windler]

In my humble opinion there is only one way to prevent cheating: To ALLOW everything.

Sealed boards are not practicable and you can still cheat. Why dont seal it by yourself? You can fake a seal as well...
You dont even need a switch. Bluetooth or even radio technic would be able to steer your marker. Its easy work for someone who deals with such technology every day.

The only way to catch cheaters would be to have someone who reads out the code of the chips and is clever enough to find a "cheat" withing minutes. Unfortunately if this guy exists, we have to pay him more than a small fortune as well. And he would be only one, while we need some more..

On the other hand a ROF reduction would make it more equal to all players. Of course you miss the skill of fast triggering, but if we cut ROF at eg 10 balls per second while allowing all trigger-"cheats" we would have a chance to improve teamplay and physics of the players a lot. This would be a far bigger quest for most of us out there.

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edited: sure one can still cheat and play with 20bps as well, but one if everybody using 10bps and everybody is used to the monotonus noise you would clearly hear is someone had way more than 10.
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The *best* idea by far is to go back to mechanical markers. By that time we had pure skill on the field...
This might be possible if the TV channels realize, that 5 boxes of paint per game looks awful dirty people playing in the mud rather than like a sport. Cause by that time the TV money is may be more important than the thoughts of the manufacturers.

..my PERSONAL thoughts..

joern.

(any comments per private email regarding which rule ever is warmly welcomed)