Oooooh!! Dynasty FA Scandal!!

[jahlad]

Originally posted by Paul Collier
Personally if I had to choose I'd rather have some trigger interaction rather then just holding the trigger.....

Paul

although i do agree with that i personally like to have some trigger interaction

 

[Ben Frain]

I think FA for tournaments will be fine, game will just change, no better, no worse, just different.

Only problem is it will never happen here due to legality This will in time no doubt create a huge rift in paintball land between the US and Europe teams and styles of play...

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
.....eventually.... everyone will see the light.

CAP THE ROF !

Take away the incentive for implementing cheat software in the first place..... 12 BPS sounds just about right to me !

Capping rof won't do jack to stop electro cheats or reduce their incentives.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
don't let Matty catch you in here, he'll be all "where are my bloody guns"....and stuff

And that's got what to do with me exactly?

Originally posted by Intheno
Am I the only one that thinks capping the ROF is gay, and that manufacturers would never agree to it, would make the guns as fast as possible, and then cause a nightmare for the judges, who have to have equipment, which has to be paid for by somebody, to use to police the ruling.?

If one series introduces an ROF cap, and one didn't, which one do you think would be successful?

Fairy godmothers do not come along to implement all this either!

To announce an ROF cap is to shut down that series and hand the teams on a plate to somebody else. Paintball players spend whatever necessary cash to get their guns to fire faster, its an arms race, it has always been this way!

What about the paint manufacturers? Whay about the stores who rely on selling paint for thier business, this is the economy of our industry, have you thought about the ramifications of capping ROF? Do you think that you can cap the ROF at the events but leave everyone else firing as fast as they want?

Anyway, its gay, and so will not work, the end.

Not quite how I would put it, but agreed.

Originally posted by Sherman
Or let's use gravity feed only. No limit on ROF but gravity feed would limit it to about 12-13 bps.

You realise the Halo B and warpfeed were designed to fit within the ASTM rules and were classed as gravity feed right?

 

[Baca Loco]

KINDA OFF TOPIC

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
FA...it ain't hurting tha NXL is it?

Like Baca said, games are just getting mo and mo exciting - and concurently, tha guns are getting faster and faster. To all intents and purposes, those cats are going FA.

Hold on a sec, Maestro. 2+2 is equaling 5 in your equation. While I'm a big proponent of Xball in general and am also excited about the development of the NXL it's less about the prodigious volume of paint--tho it's cool--and more about how the teams and players are changing, beginning to deliver on some aspects of what lots of peeps believed Xball could offer.
Still lots of room for innovation and improvement starting with field design (and one day somebody will actually start paying attention to this, dammit.)

I also think even with the paint blitz in the NXL it isn't the same as FA. And, should the NXL succeed in its goals to become a true professional sport it will be the one place rigid controls are ultimately enforced because then somebody will have a bottom line reason to assure the integrity of the game.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Steve Morris
With all the respect in the world to Manike and his really good ideas about stopping gun cheating, it is obvious he's going to fight slowing down hoppers because he's the man responsible for them speeding up in the first place.

He says capping ROF at the hopper is ludicrous but it is not. True, it is still a halfway solution but it would the quickest and simplest to at least stop the ROF at around 15 or below.

Think about it: if the next tournaments banned Viewloader Evolutions, Halo Bs and Warpfeeds then we wouldn't have more than around 15 BPS (if I'm correctly informed).

True full auto would be caught at the pre-game chrono and the in-game inspections would still go on to try and catch those that violate the one-pull-one-shot rule.

We would still continue to do random in-game chronographing. And we will start video recording suspicious shooting.

If the player with the cheating guns were forced to use "old" hopper technology I suspect their guns would turn into blenders the second their modes started kicking in.

I can feel the flames comin'.

Steve

Steve you really aren't paying any attention are you?

I would have no problem with capping loader feed rates. Why?

Because the ONLY loaders you could do it with genuinely are the Halo B and the Evolution 2 and warpfeed.

But it's just such an insanely stupid thing to suggest because it's so easy to get around and so hard to enforce that you would never be able to.

If you want to cap feed rates from a loader I can give you a halo B that gives you exactly the right feed rate reliably every single time. (Same with an evolution) but you would find with a revy or similar that it would feed faster than your cap occasionally.

Oh and you are not correctly informed. I can make a purely gravity feed system (again define gravity feed please before you even consider doing something as STUPID as banning certain loaders) that will feed faster than 15bps.

Define what type of feed and rates if allowed, and I would have no problem with it.

As pointed out before, Halo B ands Warpfeed were designed and fitted within 'gravity feed rules' set by the ATSM.

What makes you think we can't do the same within whatever definition you come up with?

It has to be the MOST STUPID idea ever. But if you want to cap loader feed rates go ahead.

Set a cap, then ban everything except the Halo B, Evolution 2 and warpfeed because those are the only ones that can be limited to fit within your cap.

Please tell me how you would test loaders to make sure they are fitting within your cap.

Then watch as everyone cheats with the software on them and laughs in your face. Your just gonna move the point of cheating to somewhere else. But if you want a Halo B that JUST and I mean JUST feeds 15bps when you test it that's easy.

Heck I could make a halo B which makes sure every gun can only shoot 15bps. You could check guns, make sure they are all, shooting at the same rof, and then set the loaders there... hell that would be the 'fairest' it would level the playing field perfectly. Oh and everyone would have to use a Halo B! Great let's do it.... or not, because it's still a stupid idea, and would in effect be EXACTLY the same as just setting the ROF at the gun.

Actually go ahead and make people have limited loaders, there would only be two units people could use then. Evo 2 and Halo B. I'd like that.

Gun's with eyes do not turn into blenders when using 'old loader technology' it's actual that very technology that would allow me to make a gravity feed loader and gun set up that's faster than the cap you want to implement.

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by manike
1--Capping rof won't do jack to stop electro cheats or reduce their incentives.

2--Not quite how I would put it, but agreed.

3--You realise the Halo B and warpfeed were designed to fit within the ASTM rules and were classed as gravity feed right?

1--depends on what the limit is. If it were low enough it would disincentivise cheats because they wouldn't be achieving anything for the risk that wasn't already more or less easily possible.
And even if they didn't the object wouldn't be stop all cheats but to limit their advantage. An unhampered 12 bps is vastly different from an easily achieved 18 bps.

2--which is why the dominating revenue streams have to come from other sources before this gets resolved.

3--Si, that's very funny. It's not really a problem cus it's all legal. But only by virtue of a conspiratorial agreement to accept an obvious circumlocution of simple logic ie: in order to create a new escalating source of cash from the players let's agree to bend the meaning of the current wording to validate what we want to do now. That's what's always happened in the past to every rule that became inconvenient and one reason we have the current crop of issues confronting the game.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Wadidiz
to at least add safety

Woah, so where did we get onto the safety thing? I thought we were trying to stop cheats. Not the same thing.

Originally posted by Paul Collier
If you had to choose FA or bounce what would you go for, as a player?

Paul

As a player I'd want FA. I've played FA and it's a different game but fun.

As a safety issue in the neutral zones I don't want to see FA, and I would rather have designer cheats instead of FA or bouncy guns. At least then you are only going to get a single ball fired in an accidental discharge situation.

 

[TJ Lambini]

But by having cheats, you have no sport.

Sport or safety - is that what tha argument is reduced to?

You know, maybe it is...how sad.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
FA...it ain't hurting tha NXL is it?

Like Baca said, games are just getting mo and mo exciting - and concurently, tha guns are getting faster and faster. To all intents and purposes, those cats are going FA.

I would personally say the NXL is more exciting and entertaining with the higher rof and bonus balling etc.

For your average spectator that's not a 'baller, it adds to the experience of watching, same as a big tackle in rugby that you can wince at, or a huge body slam in Ice Hockey.

Originally posted by Baca Loco
3--Si, that's very funny. It's not really a problem cus it's all legal. But only by virtue of a conspiratorial agreement to accept an obvious circumlocution of simple logic ie: in order to create a new escalating source of cash from the players let's agree to bend the meaning of the current wording to validate what we want to do now. That's what's always happened in the past to every rule that became inconvenient and one reason we have the current crop of issues confronting the game.

Yeah it is funny, some uninformed people sat around a table and tried to make a rule. They came up with a definition which the designers then just blew past. Sound like anything familiar that might happen again?

It wasn't a bending of any wording at all, or an inconvenient rule. It's a very set definiton, no bending, but it wasn't well thought out in consideration of the technology and what was possible, or about to become possible. It was very well thought out in relation to products and gun designs of the time.

It was a great rule though! very easy to check, test and implement for legality, and didn't stop anything that had already been made to continue being made. At least they thought about it before making it.

Those units still fit perfectly within the original rule. There was no conspiracy or changing of the rule, or backhanders as you seem to think.

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by manike
Yeah it is funny, some uninformed people sat around a table and tried to make a rule. They came up with a definition which the designers then just blew past. Sound like anything familiar that might happen again?

To-may-to, to-ma-to, Si. The point remains every time somebody with juice found a way around some rule or a way to reinterpret one rule or another the "new" rule or new understanding of the old rule simply empowered whatever change was made and the results have left the rules generally in a shambles.
With rules subject to change at the whim of those who will profit from the changes in combination with the past spotty enforcement is it any wonder nobody seems to have any respect for the game at all? Everyone wants to blame the players but they're just following the lead of those in charge.