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C

Chicago

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I want to be clear here that I'm not objcting to WDP having to sell ramping guns on one hand while having a league that's semi-auto on the other hand. I prefer semi-auto, and I understand that WDP the gun company has to provide product for the entire paintball sport and not just their league. Different businesses, different needs, fine.

What I'm objecting to is the claim that ramping is not safe, while selling product that ramps. If you really think something isn't safe, you shouldn't sell it, no matter how much people want it.

Personally, while I don't like ramping, I don't think it's unsafe either. I'm pretty sure the folks at WDP also don't consider ramping a safety hazard, especially since they're willing to sell product with ramping.

So to put out a press release claiming that ramping is a safety hazard while your actions say you don't think ramping is a safety hazard is definitely not straight-up.

For similar reasons, I don't think the press release was an attempt to dodge liability, because if anything it makes WDP even more liable by publically admitting they believe there are safety problems with their product.


If smart parts put out a press release claiming that full auto may not be safe while selling Ions most of you would be jumping all over them.
 
M

Magued

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Why?

Originally posted by trummar
One year ago disussions were about illegal ramping in Mill.series and NPPL. This year the Millennium have done something to level the field. So now everybody can ramping.

So... Last year only selected PRO-players had magic-software. This year everybody has it.

It just seems so striking that a manufacturer come with a statement about their view on ramping. When they were "most likely" giving ramping boards to their selected PRO-players last year, and therefore digging their own grave.

Ramping is like heroin. And now the pusher is telling you that it is bad for you.

Please read between the lines as my intention is not to discredit any particular firm. I am trying to generalize but english is not easy for us norwegians. ;)
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Trummar?

"It just seems so striking that a manufacturer come with a statement about their view on ramping. When they were "most likely" giving ramping boards to their selected PRO-players last year, and therefore digging their own grave. "

Well they didnt! And belive I would know if they did. So yes they can take the moral high ground here as alot of manufactuers cant.

Chicago, I think alot of people have tried to explain how WDP can say no to ramping and in the same time sell ramping guns. Its like the car manufactuer who say high speed is illegal in most countrys and can kill you. You wont see and car manufactuer cap there car maximum speed at 120 km/h. That would be suicide.

I could however imagine that WDP would be the one company that would come out with a board that couldnt be "upgrades" and show other companys the way like Mark Toye discussed.
Wouldnt be the first time they showed the way.

Regarding me and MS. We stoped doing Joy Masters as it took to much time and we didnt get any profit after 4 years. Had nothing to do with the other MS promoters.

Magued
 
Gyroscope

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Originally posted by Chicago
If you really think something isn't safe, you shouldn't sell it, no matter how much people want it.
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You know, that's right.

I suspect it is more a case of "I think this just might be bad." I think a lot of people have heebie-jeebies about ramping right now, and the reasons are mostly nebulous.
 
C

Chicago

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People can explain how WDP can say no to ramping and sell ramping guns all they want, but THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE.

I want people to explain how WDP can say ramping IS NOT SAFE and sell guns with ramping. Are we clear on the difference?

The reason car manufacturers don't cap the speed at 120 km/h is not so much that people won't buy cars that don't go dfaster than 120 km/h as it is that the extra equipment makes the car cost more and is one more thing in the car to break.

Not adding ramping to markers does neither.

That's the first place where your analogy breaks down.

The second place where your analogy is wrong is that the car manufacturer doesn't put out a press release saying "This car is not safe if driven faster than 120 km/h". WDP is putting out a press relese basically saying "We've added this mode t our gun that is not safe."


Again, I'm not objecting to WDP saying "We don't think this mode is legal under Millenium rules, so you shouldn't use it in millenium". Or even "We think ramping is stupid, ruins the game, but it's allowed some places so here it is." That's all well and good. But when WDP said "We don't think ramping is safe", THEN they crossed the line from informative press release to hypocracy. It's disingenious to claim players' safety is in question while putting the very thing that supposedly jeapordizes their safety into the hands of their opponents.
 
Furby

Furby

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Personally, I think the press release is more along the lines of a way to cover themselves from liability. Note that there's no reference whatsoever to any other leagues, just the Millenium. The PSP is mentioned, but only in reference to the mode of fire allowed there.

Based on the other statements I've seen here regarding the Millenium's gun rules vs. what's being told to players on the field, that can lead to some confusion on the part of the players and perhaps whoever is insuring Millenium? Apparently WDP is aware of this and in order to protect themselves, they're putting out a public press release in order to cover their backsides. Makes perfect sense to me.
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Cut and Paste from the other thread on this subject...just as relevant and true here as it was there.

Furthermore, Baca does indeed speak as he writes...the advantages of speaking to him in person on a semi-regular basis.

Oh, one more little bit:

And in the interest of full disclosure, and to prevent any accusations of hypocrisy, dubious honor, or outright lying, I shoot an Angel G7, with an Evolved Fly as a back up and an Alias Intimidator as a secondary...and every one of them has the appropriate software for whatever league I happen to be playing in at the moment.
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Chicago, I was hoping you could explain your nit-picking regarding WDP's stance on Ramping not being safe while at the same time selling guns that Ramp. Seems to me that individual employees can have their own opinion on a particular subject while working for a company that makes a product with features that they don't agree with. The fact remains that WDP sells markers that are capable of being compliant with all of the known leagues out there...some allow 15bps-capped ramping, while others don't. While individual employees may disagree with that, the fact remains that in some leagues it's legal and permisable, so they're forced to bring a product to their customers that reflects that.

Obviously whoever wrote that press release feels that ramping in any form is unsafe, and whilst covering their backsides from liabillity, asking the MS to make a decision one way or another, the author saw fit to inject some personal opinion there, which has kicked over quite the Hornet's Nest with the more opinionated amongst us out there. Just what line did they cross in your mind by stating that they feel that ramping is unsafe vs. it's "Stupid" or "Ruins the game"? That must be one very thin line...either way WDP is against that sort of thing, yet your sensibilities are offended by the use of the word "unsafe"?

I'm not so much worried about any perceived hypocrisy on WDP's part (because there isn't any), but I'm curious as to what the various leagues that allow ramping have to say with regards to their insurance. Enhanced modes are not ASTM compliant, which is how most insurance companies determine their risk when writing coverage. However, they don't HAVE to use the ASTM standards...they can write policies based on their own assesment of risk. I wonder who writes the policy for MS?
 
C

Chicago

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Originally posted by Furby
I wonder who writes the policy for MS?
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I wonder who writes the policy for NPPL?

The leagues are in virtually identical positions - both have a rule on paper that says semi-auto, and both have many players who use ramping anyway. for that matter, I think PSP is using the position "It's not full auto!" to keep their insurance happy. It's a big verbal game on all sides.

As for the line, I think there is a huge difference between safety and quality of the game. I don't think WDP has an obligation to make sure that the quality of the game played in PSP is good. I think WDP does have an obligation to sell a product that is safe.

I think part of the problem here is people are looking at this in the vacuum of tournament paintball, some even saying that what PSP decides to do is not up to WDP.

That would be great, if WDP's guns were only used in PSP tournaments, or maybe even tournaments. But I don't see how you can hide behind "IT may not be safe, but people need it for PSP" when the people on the receiving end of that marker are more likely than not not going to be people who chose to participate in PSP, but people at a paintball field somewhere.


As for your accusation of nitpicking, I agree, picking on the press release is just that, but this is indeed a thread about the press release. In the grand scheme of things, not a big deal at all, but the press release is none-the-less rubbish.
 
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