Heading to Amsterdam with an Angel?

[Chicago]

Hey furby

Here's a quote from one of your articles from Owen of WDP:

“I personally do not believe in a level playing field as regards rate of fire. The moment we launched the Angel LED in 96 the rest of the industry combined in an attempt to force a 13bps limit, which would have negated our firepower advantage. More recently manufacturers have introduced designer cheats to replicate our fire rates. All I can say is that we will continue to believe that there are enough people who want quality and performance over price and ‘cheat ability’ to sustain our sales and our product in the marketplace.”

What magic dust does WDP sprinkle on their markers that makes people's fingers move faster when shooting an angel?

What technological advantage did WDP guns have that made them shoot so fast in semi-auto that other manufacturers were only able to match it by adding cheater modes?

Why does Owen think it's not OK to try and stop players from getting an in-game advantage merely by buying more technoogy when it's his company selling the technology, but think it is OK to stop players from getting an in-game advantage from buying technology when someone else is selling hte technology?

 

[Crpstack]

What is soo hard to understand?


Its a clear cut thing Mill left a grey zone wide as the atlantic open.On n-th query Mill still refuses to clarify the rules and many manufacturers tried to pressure them without success. I guess the Boys -o- Birmingham had a pint or two at a local pub with their lawyers and drew some imaginary scenarios up. Bottom line is they dont wanna face one eyed guys on court and did the obvious to push responsibility where it belongs.. Too bad that the papers u sign at the registration actually release Mill from any kind of responsibility..


Thats it i guess

peace

 

[Furby]

Hey Chicago

In 1996 the Angel and the original Shocker were the only electronic markers out there, so it's a safe assumption that they did indeed have a firepower advantage over the 'cockers and 'mags that were the dominant markers on the scene at the time.

As time has passed, I've noted that the other manufacturers have caught up in producing well-engineered makers capable of wickedly fast speeds. The advent of improved trigger geometry and superior engineering and manufacturing practices pretty much put everyone so inclined to do so with the capability of making a marker that's just silly fast.

I'm advised by represenatives of WDP that their Magic Dust is currently patent pending, as are the Gnomes that live inside every SP marker's gripframe. I'm at a loss as to what makes Intimidators so fast, since I can't shoot the silly things quickly without assistance from the PSP-Compliant mode that 127.4 offers.

As for what Owen thinks, I can't say...despite my position as a media luminary spanning three different formats and over 6 years of experience, I have not yet gained the ability to read people's minds. I respectfully suggest if you want an answer to that particular question, you ask Owen yourself.

 

[Intheno]

Hey Chicago,
don't you want to come on here and spout out some poisonous bile about Planet now?

They are dishonest liars too now, right?

WDP and Planet are 2 british firms who have a woirldwide understanding of the problem, rather than a stateside one. They have clearly taken advice from lawyers and from each other and issued thier press releases accordingly.
I think its great to see the age-old Planet/WDP friendship is still as strong as ever.

Chicago, your problem seems to be not one of what the press release says, but more about who wrote it, and the fact that WDP must clearly have taken your first-born child (those old English customs die hard).
Suggest you do call Owen at WDP and really give him a really hard time. He seems an understanding guy, I am sure he will treat you and your 'problem' with the utmost respect. I am also sure he will love some twat on the internet trying to blacken his name, so make sure you draw his attention to your posts first, that should make it more interesting. I believe you can reach him at WDP's HB offices. Let me know if you need the number.

If you want to know who covers the NPPL for thier insurance then you could ask them. Or would you rather just sit there and throw **** again. I would have thought your arm would have been tired from yesterdays exertions at that.

One last thing:

You're a tosser.

 

[Furby]

Originally posted by Intheno

I think its great to see the age-old Planet/WDP friendship is still as strong as ever.

Glad to hear it! Now where's my Eclipse G7? I'll have one in Speedy Blue, please...

 

[Baca Loco]

Thanks Furbs

Originally posted by Furby
As time has passed, I've noted that the other manufacturers have caught up in producing well-engineered makers capable of wickedly fast speeds. The advent of improved trigger geometry and superior engineering and manufacturing practices pretty much put everyone so inclined to do so with the capability of making a marker that's just silly fast.

Must say this part brightened my day considerably. Didn't quite laugh out loud but it did put a big smile on my face.

 

[Baca Loco]

Can't we all just get along?

Originally posted by Intheno
They have clearly taken advice from lawyers and from each other and issued thier press releases accordingly.

Chicago, your problem seems to be not one of what the press release says, but more about who wrote it, and the fact that WDP must clearly have taken your first-born child (those old English customs die hard).

Suggest you do call Owen at WDP and really give him a really hard time.

ITN,
I think it's fair to say that WDP shouldn't be held to account for what an employee says, even one as highly placed as Owen. Nor do I think either you or Furby should feel compelled to try and defend the above quote, but--

I do see how the quote--and nobody is denying it's a direct quote, are they?--could be seen as at odds with the "official" position of the company. Be that as it may.

Nor am I particularly concerned about the morality or lack of morality of a corporation (I tend to assume they have none) but again, Chicago's points seem at least worthy of debate given that A) the WDP PR chooses to present an ethical posture and B) it seems on its face that expressing public doubt about the safety of a product one supplies is a tacit admission of liability--should a real problem arise. Surely those are both broadly issues of interest to the paintball community even if we were to separate the discussion from any particular company or series, etc.

Perhaps you could convince Owen to respond to the quote in light of recently expressed corporate policy?

 

[Chicago]

Originally posted by Intheno
You're a tosser.

Well there's a quality argument if I've ever heard one.

I don't dislike WDP anymore than I dislike pretty much all of the manufacturers for putting their own short-term best interest in front of effective solutions that will guarantee the long-term viability of our market. This press release is a stunt, something I think is pretty clear to anyone who isn't a WDP fanboy such as yourself.

They have clearly NOT taken advice from lawyers. Any lawyer worth their salt would have made absolutely sure they didn't put out a press relesae which said there was a potential safety issue with a product they were selling. It opens them up to liability.

The press release also cries foul on behavior WDP itself is guilty of.

Is it possible, just maybe, that someone might disapprove of a particular action by a particular company purely on the basis of not agreeing with that action? It seems that lacking any good explanation for the language in the release other than WDP is trying to have their cake and eat it too, you've instead decided to argue that I'm on an anti-WDP vendetta.

"It is not reasonable for WDP to say that ramping is not safe and also sell a product that ramps."

"You just hate WDP."

Well, I guess I must be mistaken then.

And I don't care about NPPL's insurance. My point was merely that NPPL and Millenium are very similar in that on paper there's no ramping but on the field there's plenty of ramping, so if one doesn't find NPPL's insurance arrangement to be odd, it seems strange to be concerned about Millenium. Clearly what is written in the rules is more important for insurance than what actually happens on the field; I was just using NPPL as an example to illustrate that. You're the one who seems to have turned that into some sort of attack.


Furby:

I agree with you entirely, which is why I think it's odd that Owen blames the ability of every manufacturer's marker to shoot fast on the installation of cheater boards, implying that there was never any difference in the internals of the markers, just on how fast people were able to pull the trigger.

The answer I ws expecting, but Intheno is apparently too busy just calling me an anti-WDP zealot to come up with himself, is that WDP originally argued against changing the rules, and now still argues against changing the rules, so they're in the clear there.

Kinda lame when I have to take care of both sides in order to have an actual intelligent discussion though.

Anyway, Owen's quote is probably more a reflection that he believes his company's guns are superior and that he hates ramping than anything else (two points I agree with), and he just didn't get a chance to phrase it right when confronted with your awesome interviewing skills.

Or, I'm just an anti-WDP zealot.

 

[Intheno]

Morning Loco,
I could probably extensively argue the 'Owens quote vs WDP PR' thing pretty well, but its much simpler to just point to the first 2 words of what Owen said and say "there you go"

Will that suffice to put that particularly weak argument to rest?

As for your points on liability. While I respect your knowledge of US law (compared to mine anyway) this is also your weakness in this regard. Europe is very different (thank the lord). In fact different countries within Europe are entirely diferent when it comes to liability litigation. WDP and Planet consulted lawyers before making thier press releases. The people responsible for the press releases in both firms are very intelligent people. It is clear WDP's lawyers are no slouches either. That said, I would argue that the issue of liability would be less post-PR than Pre-PR, as presumably that was at least part of the reason the PR was done in the first place, and not just to stir up some insults on the internet. I personally (there's those words again) would side with the experts in this matter.

 

[Intheno]

Well there's a quality argument if I've ever heard one.

Thanks, it made me feel better.

I don't dislike WDP anymore than I dislike pretty much all of the manufacturers for putting their own short-term best interest in front of effective solutions that will guarantee the long-term viability of our market.

I think the long term viability of the market is far more important to the manufacturers you dislike than it is to you.

They have clearly NOT taken advice from lawyers.

In what way is that 'clear' Back that up (wasting my time here, as you don't back up any of your 'quotes').

you've instead decided to argue that I'm on an anti-WDP vendetta.

presumably you now want to change it to an anti-WDP and Planet vendetta, as not to do so would be to prove me right, surely?

"It is not reasonable for WDP to say that ramping is not safe and also sell a product that ramps."

Ridiculous comment. Who areyou rto say what is reasonable. There arewarnings on bottles of Aspirin, is it unreasonable to sell aspirin - only if WDP sell it, right?

"You just hate WDP."

Who said this? Its in quotation marks again, are you mis-quoting or lying. Be more honest. An honest tosser is still a tosser, but at least he's honest....

And I don't care about NPPL's insurance.

So why ask?

My point was merely that NPPL and Millenium are very similar in that on paper there's no ramping but on the field there's plenty of ramping, so if one doesn't find NPPL's insurance arrangement to be odd, it seems strange to be concerned about Millenium.

There is a huge, gargantuin difference. The Millennium have told people its OK to use ramping guns, thus exposing themselves to liability through the spoken word. The NPPL has as many people using ramping guns, but as I have said before, it employs personnel and technology to prevent it. While you may mock thier attempts to stop ramping, they do attempt to stop it, and that is the difference. if you don't see the difference then step out of the paintball environment for a second and look at it through the eyes of an insurance company.

And I never use the word zealot. If you want to add power to your argument, stop doing it by mis-quoting, or often completely making quotes up. It wrecks any legitimate points you may have. I can't actually talke you seriously after those completely fabricated quotes you made up yesterday, What was that all about? How about answering my question as to who said those things, or preferably, just admit you were bull****ting and I'll drop it.