Are Euro teams getting better?

[Robbo]

So actually that is - at this point - the only thing that keeps us from developing as fast as them..... Then I agree!

But I also do believe that we in Europe are seeing a great developing in paintball - at least that´s what happening here in scandinavia - loads and loads of really great traning sites are popping up all over, and that being both reball and paint! All this increasing of playing fascilities actually - I think - equals the big development we see in the results of the scandinavian teams.... No not many of them would make it compared to the US teams right now, but they are definately devoloping fast (and bare in mind both the teams you all mention as being capable of following the US are scandinavian!) - and maybe a bit faster than others places in Europe - well I don´t know - we would have to come back on this topic a couple of years from now, and THEN see what has actually happend in the years between now and then!

Maybe we can rely on Nick making yet another topic on this 2 years from now - or else I will definately follow in my "dads" footstep and do it for him!

I am not suggesting the difference in approaches to the darker side of the game is the only reason, far from it. Their whole culture is different when confronting sporting performances with that difference being just one example.

I have seen certain nationalities having 'spurts' of improvement as is evidenced by some of the Scandinavians but this is certainly not representative of the whole whereas I have seen a definite improvement curve associated with a complete cross-section of the American team base.

Once again, I assert, until our improvement can be associated across a broader base than it is now, we will always play second fiddle to the Yanks .. we either like it or we lump it but what we must most definitely not do, is fool ourselves into positions of parity .. that's just sheer lunacy and is the domain of bigots and idiots.

 

[PEBBLE]

.

I love watching the yanks at milleniums you learn sooooo much but no american teams play milleniums anymore so its hard to learn from the best euro teams that are a step below american teams so americans have that gap

 

[Baca Loco]

And iirc, Joy hasn't any merc/us-pro in his roster...

Must'a been my imagination then that a Blonski was playing for Joy in Boston.

 

[Magued]

Bart Blonksi.

Must'a been my imagination then that a Blonski was playing for Joy in Boston.

The only Blonksi in Boston was Bart. He played for Naughty dogs, they have the red jerseys and we have the Yellow/black

Magued

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

I am not suggesting the difference in approaches to the darker side of the game is the only reason, far from it. Their whole culture is different when confronting sporting performances with that difference being just one example.

Seriously Pete - I think you have fallen in love with the notion that americans will always be better than europeans - as far as I understand you, because of a much bigget market - and because of the american sports culture?

- Am I right that it boils down to that?

If I am, how do you explain all the many sports that the US does not dominate?

There are many sports where the US market is by far the biggest in the world, and yet they do not dominate.

There are many sports where other types of sports cultures are more succesfull than the US one.

To me, the success of a paintball teams boils down to 3 things:

1) The talent of the roster
2) The talent of the management
3) The amount of training

I honestly don't see any reason why other European teams should not be able to dublicate what Joy Division has done - and if you do, I'd be very interested to learn!

I will agre, that there will always be more quality US teams, simply because they have so many more players - but mass alone is not equal to success - there are plenty of examples in sports, where small countries are immensely successfull.

What I am seeing at the moment in Scandinavia - and am told is happening in France and Germany also - is that a lot of teams are starting to practice 2-3-4 times per week.

Now, if you take Scandinavia as an example, we may not have the potential for more than 2-4 world class teams, with the talent pool we have to draw from.... but I firmly believe those teams are under development - and that Joy Division is only the first of them.

I also believe the massive improvement I have seen in German teams the last 2 years, is a development that is still only in its infancy, and will eventually create some world class teams from there.

Same goes for France.

All this tells me that European teams are improving at a rate never seen before.

You may then say that US teams are improving even faster... fair enough - but then please tell me what it is they are doing, that we are not doing, since their rate of improvement is even greater?

Nick

 

[PSPLane]

Are Euro teams getting better?

Absolutely. I remember playing in Europe when I actually felt sorry for the teams. I don't mean to make fun of them, but it was silly.

It has been a steady progression since. It has probably slowed somewhat in the past 6-8 years. If the improvements when comparing Euro teams and players to US teams and players were charted, I would assume there would be some peeks and valleys along a steady climb toward equality.

But, I don't think, on a whole, the best Euro teams will ever equal the best US teams.

I just think the US teams had a headstart that will be impossible to overcome. At least not in my lifetime. If nothing else, i don't know that the Euros (again as a group) will be able to over come the mental side of things. You can be the best Karate dude in the US, but if you went to the Orient to test yourself there, you'd have to be a bit intimidated. I think that being a team sport, that idea is componded with paintball.

I don't think it is any different than soccer. There has been a huge influx in interest, money, and training in the US over the past couple of decades. It has narrowed the gap tremendously. But the US is still quite a bit behind. Improvements from now forward will be slower and less drastic. And I, for one, don't see us catching up.

This is just my opinion and, frankly, just off the top of my head.

On a side note, I hope no one is blind to the fact that the Pro US teams are getting better and better every year. Not the Dynasty's and XSV's, but the teams with the younger players. Add to that the unbelievable growth in the skill level of the DII and DIII teams and I don't think there will be anything other than a continued improvement at the pro level over the next 3 to 5 years.

SHAMELESS PLUG follows X-Ball is becoming more and more available and sought out at the local levels. This format is improving the playing skills of younger players at an incredible rate. So long as there are enough willy veterans around to mold teams out of the skills, teams will only get better faster.

 

[Robbo]

Seriously Pete - I think you have fallen in love with the notion that americans will always be better than europeans - as far as I understand you, because of a much bigget market - and because of the american sports culture?

- Am I right that it boils down to that?

If I am, how do you explain all the many sports that the US does not dominate?

There are many sports where the US market is by far the biggest in the world, and yet they do not dominate.

There are many sports where other types of sports cultures are more succesfull than the US one.

To me, the success of a paintball teams boils down to 3 things:

1) The talent of the roster
2) The talent of the management
3) The amount of training

I honestly don't see any reason why other European teams should not be able to dublicate what Joy Division has done - and if you do, I'd be very interested to learn!

I will agre, that there will always be more quality US teams, simply because they have so many more players - but mass alone is not equal to success - there are plenty of examples in sports, where small countries are immensely successfull.

What I am seeing at the moment in Scandinavia - and am told is happening in France and Germany also - is that a lot of teams are starting to practice 2-3-4 times per week.

Now, if you take Scandinavia as an example, we may not have the potential for more than 2-4 world class teams, with the talent pool we have to draw from.... but I firmly believe those teams are under development - and that Joy Division is only the first of them.

I also believe the massive improvement I have seen in German teams the last 2 years, is a development that is still only in its infancy, and will eventually create some world class teams from there.

Same goes for France.

All this tells me that European teams are improving at a rate never seen before.

You may then say that US teams are improving even faster... fair enough - but then please tell me what it is they are doing, that we are not doing, since their rate of improvement is even greater?

Nick

Nick, if you actually read what i have said, it is this, I believe the Yanks have a steeper learning curve than us.
And for that statement, I am referring to the collective average of both sides of the Atlantic.
i have no doubts that 'pockets' of teams in different European countries have improvement curves approaching that of some yank teams, but our average is most certainly at a more shallow angle.

Nick,this year, I have seen both the average American team play, and the average European team, as far as I know, you have not.
I trust my judgment when it comes to a comparative analysis of standards without having to see them play off against each other.

As for 'lots' of different Euro teams training 2, 3 or 4 times a week?
I don't believe it, even if we replace the word 'lots' with 'significant', we still ain't doing that either.

The harsh realities are finance based and also venue because if we assume these teams are using Reballs to cut down on expense then we must also assume it is being played indoors.
I just don't believe there are that many teams with that facility available to allow them to train that many times a week in any significant numbers.
If we now assume they are not using Reballs, then the expense would be huge and I know what the sponsor package environment is like out there at the moment and unless 300 European Paintball players have each won the lottery, I don't believe they are doing this either.

I haven't fallen in love with any notion that allows me to consign European teams to playing second fiddle as a matter of necessity, I deal in practicalities and information I have accumulated, and of course my experience in this sport.
This is what goes to make up any opinion I might harbor Nick and not some amorphous ideal of American superiority.

 

[Robbo]

Are Euro teams getting better?

Absolutely. I remember playing in Europe when I actually felt sorry for the teams. I don't mean to make fun of them, but it was silly.

It has been a steady progression since. It has probably slowed somewhat in the past 6-8 years. If the improvements when comparing Euro teams and players to US teams and players were charted, I would assume there would be some peeks and valleys along a steady climb toward equality.

But, I don't think, on a whole, the best Euro teams will ever equal the best US teams.

I just think the US teams had a head start that will be impossible to overcome. At least not in my lifetime. If nothing else, i don't know that the Euros (again as a group) will be able to over come the mental side of things. You can be the best Karate dude in the US, but if you went to the Orient to test yourself there, you'd have to be a bit intimidated. I think that being a team sport, that idea is componded with paintball.

I don't think it is any different than soccer. There has been a huge influx in interest, money, and training in the US over the past couple of decades. It has narrowed the gap tremendously. But the US is still quite a bit behind. Improvements from now forward will be slower and less drastic. And I, for one, don't see us catching up.

This is just my opinion and, frankly, just off the top of my head.

On a side note, I hope no one is blind to the fact that the Pro US teams are getting better and better every year. Not the Dynasty's and XSV's, but the teams with the younger players. Add to that the unbelievable growth in the skill level of the DII and DIII teams and I don't think there will be anything other than a continued improvement at the pro level over the next 3 to 5 years.

SHAMELESS PLUG follows X-Ball is becoming more and more available and sought out at the local levels. This format is improving the playing skills of younger players at an incredible rate. So long as there are enough willy veterans around to mold teams out of the skills, teams will only get better faster.

Lane, 'yes' we are getting better, but we ain't even in the same league as you Yanks so any comparative analysis is pretty much meaningless when it comes to comparing the average teams against each other.

If we take out the equation Joy and RL, what are we really left with?
When you come up with the answer to that question, you are left with an improved European playing standard but.....it is an improvement compared to an abysmally low reference point anyway ... you get my drift?

Not only are the Yanks starting (a lot better than us in the first place) from a much higher start point along that 'Y' axis, they are improving at a faster rate.

 

[Chicago]

Other than Joy and RL, what European teams are even trying to be the among the best Pro teams on the planet? I don't mean the other teams arn't trying, but it just seems like RL and Joy put just a little more into it.

And if they are the only teams in Europe who are 'trying as hard' as the Americans, it would make sense that they are the only two teams who have approached the same level as the Americans.


Or put another way, if RL and Joy can do it, why can't anybody else?

 

[Lexx]

well..

Just wanted to mention Stockholm Ignition as another great European top team..