Violent Crimes Reduction Bill.

[Raffles]

The problem is that any card carrying member of the ASBO squad (young punks I believe the USA call them ) can go into a high street store - hand over their hard earned giros (welfare checks) - well, the cash from them - and pick up a potentially lethal weapon complete with ammunition and the means to fire it.

Remember the 'shooting pedestrians from a moving' car video that those american kids did? Well, if that happened over here - this nanny state would be all over paintball like a rash!

Forget ramping (it's even beginning to get on my nerves). Forget reballs and the rest. Forget everything about 'safe' paintball. Do you think these people will care if a passer-by has a mask on or not?

Paintball is still very much an 'underground' sport here in the UK. It would be very easy for someone to take a PKExtreme (sp) for example and go out and mug somebody with it. The poor mugee wouldn't know the difference - especailly if the area is dimly lit.

In fact, let's take that scenario - I think it would go something like this...

Mugee reports to the police that it was an armed mugger ("it looked like a gun to me officer")
Police file the report as armed robbery
Suspect gets grassed up by local snout (informer)
Armed police unit knock on suspects door at 5 in the morning (I've seen them do this! Nice area I live in ).
Turns out it was a paintball gun
Press get to hear of it
Headlines "Armed robbery with a paintball gun" (no doubt people on here can come up with better ones - but that's another thread).
Gets on local TV news.
Richard and Judy (Oprah etc) take it up
Other scrotes (punks) get to hear of it and think "hmmm - good idea" (a bit like the old glue sniffing craze of the 80's)
All of a sudden it's a major problem with national media coverage
Nanny state says "oh - ban it - it's dangerous"
Forget ramping - because paintball is now dead!

So regardless of self-policing/registration/ramping/sold ROUNDS etc. - we are history.

"Fore!"

 

[Headshot Apoc]

Back in the day a numpty did a post office in Hull with a Splatmaster painted black.

Didn't make the papers as a PB marker just as Armed Robbery, Luckily PB was VERY small in the early 90's so no one jumped on it hard!

Still no reply from my MP

 

[Raffles]

That's something to be thankful for (the 'not reported as a PB marker' bit). Do you think in this day and age of ASBO's being more of an 'agg status symbol that if such an incident happened today - it would still be low-key?

Not having a go - just asking for your opinion - because I don't think it would be so low-key these days.

 

[Skeet]

I refer to previous posts on my part, almost two years ago.

Originally posted by Skeetmaster
Maybe if we made an effort to licence ourselves it might show willing. I hold both firearms and shotgun certificates,...so understand a bit about in's and outs.

If the UKPSF..was to set up a registration process...similar to the aplicaton of a firearm...ie: register your ownership or intent to own a Paintball marker, along with someone or two someone's to vouch for you, independently..maybe a reference from a site owner...
This of course would all be voluntary, but as and when people buy or sell markers, information could be updated..this might help reduce marker theft.
If most regular Paintballers had one..then they could produce it if asked at paintball stores...whereby it gives the store owner a check..if he has any doubts about the customer (ie doesnt know them)
Would also help with online purchases/deals..the vendor can ask for Name address and Register no...this could be checked via a UKPSF website, if it checks out great..if not the vendor then can make an informed decision..
I hope im not upsetting anyone, its not meant as a sinister thing, more a way of protecting ourselves and our sport...
After all...unless someone plays paintball regularily or is involved in the sport, they dont need a marker.
It wont make the sport more difficult to get into..as people dont go out to buy a marker, before they play paintball (or they shouldnt do!) so after a few trips to a site...the field owner could give a reference.
I would say that, i dont suppose the problems are caused by people buying Angels or Timmys, more the budget end of the market..
We dont really want people going out buying markers to use in their own back gardens (solely) as very few back gardens are large or isolated enough to play paintball in safely...so anyone who wants a marker for legitimate purposes would be fine as they generally are involved in the sport before they invest in it..

Gaz prepares to be flamed...but hopes he doesnt!

P.s. Doesnt the Law say that an Offensive or Lethal weapon is catagorised as having been Made..Intended..or ADAPTED..in which case, as someone has said..the device is no longer what it was originally..


SECOND POST

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Smudge
"HEAR,HEAR!!!!"



BUT: If a paintballer with his/her own marker was to hold a license for having the marker and using it for the sport......
wouldn't you still get people who own the marker not for the 'sporting use' making them self a 'fake' license

How would the U.K.P.S.F know whether or not he has bought the marker intending to use it for paintball tournies,rec~balling,etc...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Right well...First off they have to know what the "Certificate" (better than Licence) looks like before they can copy it...also, the vendor would be able to check Certificate details against the Proposed UKPSF website, in order to verify it..in this case say someone had copied another players licence somehow, or outright stolen it, the Vendor could check the register for Markers allready allocated to that Certificate (details of which would not be on the certificate) this can then be used to check if the person knows what they "all ready own" or in the case of the Certificates rightfull owner not having purchased any markers before it was stolen (therefore none registered) the vendor could ask who Their referees were or which site owner Recommended them (also not on the Certificate)
If someone wants to Forge any document it is possible, but for our purposes, it would be extreme.

Secondly...the person who has applied for the Certificate...will have been either Refereed by two fellow Paintballers (also Certificate holders) Or by the Proprietor of the site they frequently attend..
(if a punter wishes to take up the sport more seriously, to Walk On level, they could apply for an application...part of which they should hand to the site operator..who will then be able to monitor the Applicant's suitability and record number of visits..to which there would be a minimum amount before Certification could be granted..5 -10..dont know)
..So..the UKPSF will know that the Certificate holder has been vetted...There could be different uses featured on a Certificate eg:
ROBBO from Nexus (and paintball History, Present and future, Hi Pete!) would have something like "Professional Use" featured on his Certificate and Someone like myself would have "Amateur Use" and Joe Walkon would have "Recreational Use" on his...
This could also be another way of checking for fraud or theft...
If a "Professional Use" Certificate turns up at Planet to buy a £100 marker (assuming they dont Recognise the Player) eyebrows could be raised "Why does he/she want that?"

Like I said before..this is only my own...quickly created ideas, and is not intended to be Draconian in any way..just a means of protecting the Sport, The Players and of course people like the young lady mentioned.
The idea is, that someone without a Certificate could be refused, when trying to purchase a marker ( i say "could" because not being a legal document, it is upto the Vendors to decide..but I feel sure that the majority of "proper" paintball retailers would honour this.)
Any more comments..from you experienced peeps?
Gaz

THIRD POST

Steve...
As mentioned in the first post i did.
All "certificates" would be registered...the UKPSF or whatever body issues them...would have an Online website, where people can check the some details of another certificate holder, after ebtering their own Certificate number to gain access..this would enable s/h sales to be checked out before the Vendor sells the Marker....
Likewise.. an online store, would take the certificate number along with the other details and could also check the details...
If a Certificate is suspected stolen or Fraudulent..a simple call from the UKPSF to the "certificate" holder would clear up any falsifications " Are you trying to buy a marker?" "No..im in the bog!"

Smudge...You think its reasonably water tight?
Opinions would be good..i cant think of everything!
Gaz


FORTH POST

I thought that if this was in place, it would help deter theft within the sport, if something like the Dart incident or heven forbid worse, occured, our spokespeople could request the serial number/make of the marker..this could then be used to either convict a wrong dooer, or return stolen goods to their rightfull owner or, most importantly, point out that the person who possesed the marker IS NOT, part of the paintball community, as he is not registered..the potential to explain the "certification" process can only be good for the sport, to help the authorities and joe public to realise that we are proffesional about our sport.
Gaz

Also...a recent post.
http://www.p8ntballer-forums.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46969

I can past teh section on Imitation Firearms as well if necessary. Should add, that this is the 2002 edition, and I believe has been amended recently.

So...does anyone have any views on this...I think I covered many of the bases when I wrote it 2 years ago..its not going to stop teh naughty people, you never will as was said...but, it helps us, to show, that our people, are known to us

 

[JoseDominguez]

Originally posted by gyroscope
How different do you guys think ramping looks to the average non-player? Any different than walking a trigger?

The problem it seems you are facing is that they look like guns, shoot things, and are outside most people's experience.

Exactly, summed up in one simple statement.

 

[Headshot Apoc]

Originally posted by Raffles
That's something to be thankful for (the 'not reported as a PB marker' bit). Do you think in this day and age of ASBO's being more of an 'agg status symbol that if such an incident happened today - it would still be low-key?

Not having a go - just asking for your opinion - because I don't think it would be so low-key these days.

Thats what I was getting at, The way the tabloids are at the moment we could quite easily get slapped about after another incident like that, But we have been an easy target for a long time now,

And I guess if we aren't getting off our collective arses and licensing ourselves then when an 'incident' occurs and we get the nice people in power all upset we should expect to get shafted!

One of the main problems in PB in the Uk seams to be all the different powers pulling in different directions, When are we going to get taken seriously if even in such a minority 'sport' as this no one can agree one standard set of rules!!

we need one organising body actually organising things, then we can do all the stuff Mr Skeetmaster says, or something similar. Lets face it even if registration cost us all £25 for the year we shouldn't complain, anyone who plays a millenium round gets mugged for nearly hat just to have their face on a piece of plastic! And this sort of registration could protect and regulate the 'sport'

enough rambling, straying off topic

 

[Steve Bull]

Just a few thoughts

I have not read all the posts so do apologise but would like to add a couple of points.

Firstly I am not having a dig at anyone, other than paintball apathy, so please do not think I am. Also points I raise may not have any relevance to this thread but I felt needed raising.

Years ago the UKPSF suggested a registration system after player representations and it failed because of the usual paintballer apathy - then when there is a potential threat we all jump on the "lets create a registration system band wagon" This could have been done years ago but the support was not there. I believe someone else tried to start a system and again it failed.

I personally would like to see a system and if there is someone out there who will create the information gathering system the UKPSF will help finance it.

About 12 months ago (possibly more) I posted on here and other forums a request for letters of support for a submission I made on behalf of the world of paintball to the Home Office as part of their "Firearms Consultation" this was a committee who were looking into reclassification of air weapons, general firearms and replicas. Due to the usual paintballer apathy the weighty document I submitted contained 1 letter of support from a paintballer. Yes ONE. This firearms committee is probably the one that has reported to the Government and this has then resulted in the possible ban of replica weapons. I do not have their reply to my submission to hand but do remember that they did not feel the needed to look at the paintball industry as we were not one of their main areas of concerns. (I will find the letter as post the relevant parts)

And now the point that gets my back up. I had an e mail from a player about the possible ban that could have an affect on the Armotech marker he has (his words not mine) the email contained the following questions “What are the UKPSF doing about it?” “Is the UKPSF organising a petition?”

To my knowledge and my database this player has NEVER been a member of the UKPSF yet now there is a problem he jumps on the “What are the UKPSF doing about it” band wagon. Well we sent a submission to the HO explaining the difference between a paintball marker and air pistols, rifles, etc….enclosing photographs etc….. but only one letter of support from a player. We do consult with the HO on issues that affect the world of paintball. A letter is being sent to the HO asking them to clarify what is a “replica” and pointing out the concerns of paintballers not to be accidentally included in any legislation that will affect paintball.

This is done with the support of the minority of paintballers but the majority of site owners. So instead of jumping on the “What are the UKPSF doing about it” bandwagon, join and then you can ask “What are the UKPSF doing” in the knowledge that you support the UKPSF all the time and not when you feel there is a threat to your sport.

www.ukpsf.com

Rant over

 

[Steve Bull]

This is an e mail I recieved so here it is for you to have a look at:



Hi Guys, Im getting in touch with as many people as I can who may be affected by the new proposed changes to the crime bill, These laws will outlaw anyone who owns or sells virtually anything that can be mistaken for a firearm, that includes De-act guns, airsoft replicas, air guns etc. I was hoping that you would place the following in a prominent position on your site, I am not after publicity or recognition, I just feel that the more people that are made aware of the proposed changes the better. We need everyone's support from the hobbyist to the collector. Thank you.

Having read many articles and forum threads relating to this crime bill the conclusion that I have drawn from this is that we MUST unite. All our comments on the subject should be in the same place not spread around different forums, Our petition should be one and the same not lots of different ones arguing the same point. This bill will not only affect YOU in YOUR sport or past time, it will affect hundreds of thousands of law abiding people across the UK.

I am asking you, with the permission of your forum Mods to move your comments to this one site so that we can show a united stance against this unwarranted knee-jerk act. I am sending this to all the forums that I know and everybody I know within my sport, Please do the same. We MUST get our message across…

http://www.gundeals.co.uk/crimebill/forum/index.php

I understand that many of you have already been asked to sign a petition against this proposed ban, Im sorry guys but Im asking you to do it again, and in the comments bar please put your sport or past time so that we don’t miss any group out there.

This IS important..

http://www.PetitionOnline.com/cb112233/petition.html

Thank you for your support

 

[Raffles]

At last - the REAL voice of paintball .

Many thanks for taking the time to post this Steve - I, for one, do appreciate it.

To the rest of us :

If Steve thinks that registration is a good idea - then so do I (notice my u-turn here?). The reason I agree with virtually everything Steve says is due to the fact that he has been working behind the scenes of paintball for a VERY long time now. I believe that the UKPSF (whom he represents) are the closest thing we have to a governing body so his opinion does count.

I do not mind collecting and collating marker registration details if needed - and, for that matter, neither does Mad Dog (he is the one who tried this again last year).

Trouble is - do you mind filling in a registration form everytime you buy or sell a marker? I am thinking along the lines of a car log book type scheme - where you fill it in when you buy one - and fill another bit in when you sell it.

I suppose this information could also be used to check for stolen markers as well (providing the real owner informs the registrar).

Tell you what - I'm going to take the plunge - I will create a web based form this week. Who knows - you may even get an 'ownership' certificate - can only be a good thing to all you marker whores .

Steve - if you want the UKPSF to be part of this then drop me a PM and we can have a 'chat'.

If anyone else wants to 'help' or has a constructiive idea - then please pm me as well (if full - e-mail me at raffles@teambadattitude.co.uk).

This may only be 1-step in the right direction - but hopefully it will be a big enough one that the HO take us seriously.

Time will tell...

 

[RoryM]

I wholeheartedly admire Steve and the UKPSF for all the efforts that he and all those that help with the Federation, you are a legend and a rock, and I understand the desire to have some form of responsibility for our ownership of markers, and this is in no way a post to say no to the proposals, but we, as this forums subscribers, are already showing concern and understanding for the problems that may face us in the very near future, we are not the ones that may decide to indulge in the stupidity of drive-by paintball, or any use of a marker in an innappropriate place.

The problem will arise from those that just buy a cheap or second hand marker for the sole purpose of improper use. They are not concerned about the legality and will not have any inclination to register thier marker anywhere. It is these people we maybe should be looking at to control in some form, somehow, as they are the ones who will create the situation that may ultimately cause all of our demises.

As yet this is a very large headache that I cannot put a reasonable solution forward to as yet. My first solution was that retailers should only sell to someone who is over 18 or accompanied by their parent and is given the run down of what they can do if used out in the general public, so the parent realises what their children's 'toy' can actually do. But then there is the second hand market where most of the paintball 'incidents' have sourced the markers I would expect.

So back to square one, if the majority all want registration, then of course I will do it, it will only work with all of our support.