Ton Tons @ CC

[Robbo]

Originally posted by kris

well for a start financial penalties for dangerous play.????

Why bother, this is not a benchmark that is either relevant or necessary when stiffer penalties is all that is needed in terms of regulation

creating a unified body???..

We are in the process of doing exactly that, I believe in the next few months, the cornerstone for this world league and federation will be laid in Orlando at World Cup.

Wouldn’t it be nice to have an annual ukpsf annual general meeting???...

Judging by most people's lethargy in this country when it comes to doing anything positive, I would think Steve Bull has better things to do than put a lot of work into something that is going to be poorly attended but if I thought it would be well attended, I would support it and help in any way I could.

It just comes across to me, and i may be wrong, that we seem to want to do something radical in the way we promote/do things????

The only 'radical' thing we need to do in this country is get serious, it's not really radical in the definitive sense but in this country, it can easily be termed radical.

Heres an idea, would you think a Sunday league football type system would work in paintball.
Small number of teams in a league, each team is responsible for its own field?????......

I'm afraid, if we want to get serious about paintball then we have to take our lead from any world league that is forthcoming from prospective talks. It's a top down influence going on here but we just ain't important enough to go it alone and have to follow the lead set by others, and rightfully so.
We are going to be part of a new world order not a new Brit order.
Once the dust has settled we can begin to turn our attention to organizing ourselves within the framework of any new world infrastructure and perhaps then, we can start to innovate in some ways.
Us Brits have a lot to give, we do have influence but this is from a few individuals, I would love to see us get our ass in gear in terms of our teams getting serious but there has to be a sea change in attitude and as of yet, I see no evidence of it.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

And the alterative is me letting my players go out on the field and at the verty least get out-gunned off the bat and lose more players than them in most games (frequency ramping) or run the risk of my players getting seriously hurt by scumbags who use velocity ramping.

Actually no.

There are many alternatives - the quickest and easiest solution is not always the best one - sadly

If the big leagues sacked up, it would be really easy (with ample warning - say 4-5 months from now) - to require all boards to readable for the leagues' gun scrutineer, and for software to be unmodified compared to the code the manufacturers would also be required to supply to the league (obviously under contract - that specified extremely heavy economic penalties, if the code found its way to other parties).

Any suspicion - your gun is handed to the gun scrutineer, who plugs it into his laptop and compares your code to what has been provided by the manufacturer (which will take no more than a few seconds).

Any manufacturer declining to aid the leagues as required, will have their equipment banned from the leagues' events.

Job done - and not a single innocent player will get banned because an overeager untrained halfwit ref THINKS the player is shooting suspiciously fast.

In Europe, we have the benefit of our premier league not being owned by manufacturers - so there are no real political reasons why this solution could not be implemented.... and to the best of my knowledge no technological or economical reasons either.

Nick

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Actually no.

There are many alternatives - the quickest and easiest solution is not always the best one - sadly

If the big leagues sacked up, it would be really easy (with ample warning - say 4-5 months from now) - to require all boards to readable for the leagues' gun scrutineer, and for software to be unmodified compared to the code the manufacturers would also be required to supply to the league (obviously under contract - that specified extremely heavy economic penalties, if the code found its way to other parties).

Any suspicion - your gun is handed to the gun scrutineer, who plugs it into his laptop and compares your code to what has been provided by the manufacturer (which will take no more than a few seconds).

Any manufacturer declining to aid the leagues as required, will have their equipment banned from the leagues' events.

Job done - and not a single innocent player will get banned because an overeager untrained halfwit ref THINKS the player is shooting suspiciously fast.

In Europe, we have the benefit of our premier league not being owned by manufacturers - so there are no real political reasons why this solution could not be implemented.... and to the best of my knowledge no technological or economical reasons either.

Nick

Nick, 'if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle' springs to mind.
IF the Millennium sacked up, IF the NPPL sacked and so on.
Nick, me and you both know it ain't that easy to do this, it would need the compliance of the industry as well and the leagues are heavily dependant upon the industry for survival....I'll say no more.....

I would 100% agree with you that this is by far the best way to go, it is by far the best option in terms of catching people out, deterrence and practicability but I have little faith in all the parties to actually make the necessary decisions and actions.

And in the meantime (which is my major point) I am being asked to put my players out onto the field against scumbag velocity rampers !!!
We should use marshall judgements as a temporary measure till the real solution comes along, we can't have no active deterrent, we need something mate, my idea isn't perfect but give me a reffing mistake any day over one of my players getting injured.

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

Nick,

I don't know what's so hard to understand about Robbo's proposal. If someone's going to use cheating software they ain't gonna use it to add one or two shots above the limit. They're going to use electronic help to double the amount of paint thrown down a lane, especially on the break. Any referee who has worked PSP or Millennium this season, if not distracted by other situations, can instantly tell that the gun is taking off. Such a cheating gun is at least as clearly cheating as a player who puts his hand on a hit and rubs it. All it takes is a ref who has the sack and a league that won't be barked down.

As Robbo has said countless numbers of times: guns shooting at 25-30+ bps are even more obvious for refs, other players and spectators than someone who wipes a hit. No CSI lab or judge and jury need to prove anything in either case.

 

[Robbo]

Red Ring, Nick fully understands what I am saying but he is of the belief that unless you can introduce a system that is fully functional, then there is no point in doing what I suggest as a sort of half way house.
I am of the opinion that any measure has to be beneficial at this time and all the time we sit and talk, teams like 'we know who' will laugh at us and cheat like **** and in so doing endnager others.

Nobody calls for video evidence of a wipe whena judge calls it so why get all nit picking when a player's health and safety is at risk, it all seems so arse about face to me and holds no logic whatsoever.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

I don't know what's so hard to understand about Robbo's proposal

Ehmm - I don't really think I have demonstrated lack of understanding of the proposal....

I just don't think it is a good one - I'm sorry.

The only cheaters you'll catch are the very few stupid ones - if the refs are supposed to be certain by a good margin.

And if not - you'll penalise a whole bunch of innocents.

- WHAT'S SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT -

Nick

 

[duffistuta]

RRI, Nick, play nice please.

 

[EyeFellOva]

Surely it would only take a few players to get penalised under Robbo's proposals for teams and players alike to get their collective fingers out and demand changes.

Treading lightly around the problems seems to be what has created this situation, and surely a heavy handed approach (if just at first) would force organisers/promoters to initiate changes, if only to stop the grief they are getting!

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
The only cheaters you'll catch are the very few stupid ones - if the refs are supposed to be certain by a good margin.

And if not - you'll penalise a whole bunch of innocents.

- WHAT'S SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND ABOUT THAT -

Nick

Sorry, didn't at all mean to come across disrespectfully. Tone is very difficult to convey properly on a forum.

Firstly, we aren't necessarily out to catch the cheaters. Our main goal would be to stop the cheaters in the first place. That would be done by clear communication of the rules, the intention to enforce the rules, the demand (and training behind it) that refs penalize consistently when they're aware of the violation of the rules and, if necessary, some players paying the wages of their sins.

Secondly, I thought it had been made clear that we're talking about the clear cheating that I'm sure you can clearly see yourself (because most everyone else surely can) and that is players shooting OBVIOUSLY above the 15bps limit and/or above what is humanly possible.

As I lay it out here I don't see how anyone innocent would get penalized because I'm talking about 25+ bps which is EASY to hear for probably everyone reading this. And, as I've said earlier, players who cheat this way are going to go for the full monty, especially on the break. Not for 17 or 18bps.

Are the ones who do this the stupid cheaters? Not if you call some of the biggest names in paintball stupid 'cause you only have to go back a few weeks to see that happening right in front of God and the whole world.

Or am I misunderstanding something here?

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Appology accepted

So - how would you word such a rule for it to have the inteded effect - and NOT catch a lot of innocents on assumption alone?

You see - that's where I see the problem.

It's easy enough to just say "let's institute extremely hard penalties for blatant cheats" - but it is extremely hard to enforce fairly.

Playing on, wiping, etc. are offences that are penalised in that one game - players accept this risk and depending on the situation run it - or not.

What I get the impression of in this debate (I might be wrong) - is that we are talking FAR harsher penalties for gun cheats - and then it suddenly goes beyond "the refs cost us that game" - it becomes a matter when one bad call can break a team for a prolonged peiod of time.... and that's where I think we should be extremely hesitant.

There is a psycology here that people should realise.... when you give refs a new power - they jump all over exercising it.... many refs are really good - but also, many are not, a don't ref to make to make the game fair... they ref because they get a kick out of the interim power they hold.

We are only 1,5 year after a Toulouse event where more than 70 players got banned for trigger bounce - and very few of them with any intent to cheat.

We are only half a year after an event where numerous players got 141'd because players failed to put their hand on their head when eliminated.

My point is - that as soon as we are talking "extremely harsh penalties" - we should be very carefull - because otherwise it will come back and bite us in the ass..... all it takes is one bad ref, and this proposed rule will blow up in our faces.

Nick