Ton Tons @ CC

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
"Moral high ground" is a moot point in paintball Pete - you know that.

Back in the day Sergey refused to let his players play on - because of a high sense of morale - but at some point he got tired of loosing because teams cheated against them - and changed the policy.

I would argue that he is the only Pro captain in the history of paintball to hold any moral high ground.... the rest of us - yourself included - just allow various shades of cheating, be that playing on, wiping, ROF ramping or velocity ramping.

Now, I fully agre that velocity ramping is a particular nasty kind of cheating, as it is dangerous as well as immoral.... but to some people it might appear to be just another shade of grey..... especially when taking into consideration that velocity ramping is only a 141 offence according to the rules of our game.

I am NOT advocating you allow cheatmodes in the Nexus guns in the future (and I am fairly sure you will not, which I applaud) - I'm only commenting on the issue of morality in our game

Nick

I think you maybe right regarding your take on 'shades of grey' and is somewhat evidenced by what Frank said to me and this idiot 'ptit_mat' who has reaffirmed my claims that some on the Ton Tons just cannot believe some teams don't have these cheats on their markers.
I also agree about Sergey being the only person to hold a true position of moral standing and the rest of us are just 'shades of grey'.


As for any morailty in our game?
When players, industry and leagues are all complicit (some greater than others) in this current state of affirs, then what hope has morality got in making any sort of appearence.


And as for you ptit_mat, either shut the fcuk up or come on here and tell me you don't use velocity ramped markers and then I will call you a fcuking liar and then tell me Nexus do use them and once again, I will call you a fcuking liar !!!!!

You keep opening your mouth and I will make u and your team look fools, your choice !!!

You can enter a constructive debate, no problem, I will have no problem with you if you do that but don't try and tell me you haven't used velocity ramped guns and also don't tell me Nexus use them also, and if you keep to that requirement, we might get somewhere but I got a sneaky suspicion you ain't got the balls or the integrity.

 

[jotajotaZ]

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
Really? Why not?

As far as my understanding of cockers go, the ball speed is affected by the pressure of the vertical regulator and the time the valve is open (that is in direct relation to the speed the hammer hits it, thus the hammer spring tension vs the valve spring tension). Of those, only the vertical reg pressure and the hammer spring tension are adjustable without fully stripping the marker and both will need allen wrenches use.

Electronic markers where the dwell is controlled by software are easier to ramp.

 

[shamu]

Sadly, Frank's comments are only reflective of the attitude I see from most pballers (pro and otherwise) - the "I didn't lose, I was robbed" attitude. Almost every game, you'll hear one team spewing excuses about why they lost.

It was the refs fault.
the paint sucks.
I shot him first.
he wiped the hit.
they have ramping guns.

Rarely do you hear "the other team played better than us." Instead, it's all about how "dey wuz robbed".

And that denial makes it easier for them to rationalize whatever actions they take. Play through the hit? wipe it? use ramping velocity/frequency? Hey, the other guys are doing it so we have to do it to keep up.

TonTons are a good example. A good team that's going through some rebuilding, having trouble getting wins. Is it because they need to work on some elements of their game? No, it's because someone cheated them, doesn't like them, whatever. Lest anyone think that I'm picking on TonTons, I can point to at least a dozen other pro teams who do the exact same thing. UKK's comments are a perfect example of this.

Why is it so hard for players today to accept that they lost?

PS - Robbo, if Nexus used cheating guns, people would know. Could we prove it? Maybe not, but we'd know. Is a win obtained through illicit means really a win, compared to how you'll feel when you do it legitimately?

 

[Spike]

wow - maybe I should have said hey ladies lets carry this one on!! - LOL

As for reasons why I will not divulge what was said is because it would not be fair for the team members to find out on this board before Laurent had a chance to tell them.

My reasons for talking to him regarding the subject I would have thought were pretty clear.

 

[BBS]

Originally posted by Twiglet
Thats the impression i got when reading the post. To be honest i agree with Teej though, swearing on the lives of others means different things to different people, some more honest than others.

Sam, (sarah forgot to logout )

Swearing on the lives of your children means the same thing to everyone (or at least should do), an undeniable truth. If someone offered me an explanation, swearing on the lives of their children, then I would accept that oath as fact, just as I would expect someone to believe me if I offered that particular oath. The fact that it is being refuted smacks of guilt transfer.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by shamu
PS - Robbo, if Nexus used cheating guns, people would know. Could we prove it? Maybe not, but we'd know. Is a win obtained through illicit means really a win, compared to how you'll feel when you do it legitimately?

Shamu, the point I was cynically trying to make was that because almost everybody seems to accept what is going on, it also seems to imply the rules are either out of step or the consensus are morally corrupt, either way it leaves little room for me to function with any practical value when I own a team that is in a competitive environment such as the NPPL.
Taking a moral stand in this instance, with the vast majority diametrically opposed to what I am doing, is about as meaningful as an ashtray on a motorbike, it just makes no sense whatsoever and all it affords me is a self satisfied smug smile as i sit at home watching TV, and that's all, a frikkin smile while the others win more trophies.
And the true irony is, do the crowds cheer any less loud for the winners of a NPPL tourney when they know that cheat markers have been used by the winners?
Do they heck.

The cheating miraculously evaporates from people's minds when that all powerful antidote of 'winning' is thrust in front of them amidst such an all enveloping seal of approval from all the other indulgers.

 

[Missy Q]

did you know that the NPPL actually wanted much tougher penalties for gun cheats this season and put way tougher rulings to the rules committee? Did you know that this was voted down after vigorous arguments by a certain pro captain on the committee? Why would this be voted against? I don't get it. If the pro teams want better gun rules, why would they vote against them, and encourage other members of the rules committee to vote against them?
Pete, you know this is true, and in the next thread over the Pro captains are talking of unifying and demending certain things from the league, including tougher, and more enforcable rules. The captains want to have better rules, but don't want the penalties increased, in case they themselves get caught cheating. How seriously can you take people that are asking you to stamp out cheats when they themselves are cheating like f*ck at every opportunity. It stinks of hypocracy.

Moving on.
In the 18, only 10 would have to agree to force a decision. If you include the likelihood of sister teams, then in 2 years you may only need 6 out of 18 to agree on a motion, for it to be passed. It would be sensible to assume that it would be the top 6, as including one of the bottom half in your clique would be risky, as if they were relegated you would have to re-aquire new loyalties.

 

[Robbo]

Ya know what Missy, If i hadn't resigned from that rules committe, I woulda voted for a frikkin beheading if people got caught with gun cheats and you know why I would have voted that way.

If you are talking about Ed or Ronnie blocking the motion to increase penalties, then frikkin get rid of them, if you want I will call either up now and sack him, give me the authority and I will do it, I am sick and tired of excuses being made everywhere I look as to why cheating is flourishing.

 

[Missy Q]

so you see my point!

The captains think the league need to do something about the cheating. I agree with them, but do they really expect to be taken seriously when they block the motions to do so, continue to cheat like fxck whenever possible, and would sell thier souls like the sisters they never had?
I feel I am the only one who thinks this is giving the lunatics the keys to the asylum. And before anyone starts on me, its a fxcking metaphor. I am not calling anyone a lunatic.

captain: I want better gun rules to prevent cheating.
league: OK, here are some better gun rules
captain: You must be joking, I'm not voting for that, what if I get caught?
League: ..................but.................???

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

What were the specific rule changes suggested?

I'm just curious - because it sounds a little too transparent for even the most dense Pro Captain (whoever that may be) to vote against something - when his vote would only serve to convince everyone his team was cheating.

For instance - NPPL representatives have suggested the "prove you are not cheating" rule - which I think many would vote against on principle alone - because it opens up for too many possibilites of abuse.

And Missy - before you get your panties in a twist - I'm not trying to wind you up - I'm genuinely curious, in order to better understand.

Nick