Ton Tons @ CC

[fred1]

One question Nick with regards to checking the software on a board. Would it not be possible to have two softwares on one board? One that you can access easily and one that is hidden? I don't understand much about all this technology but I imagine this must be possible. If the gun scrutineer has to start hacking the board to find hidden software he is not even sure is on it it could become pretty complicated and be very time consuming. As we say the cheats are always a step in advance.

 

[Matski]

Unless boards were issued with entrance fees, I can't see how the idea would be anything other than short term. It's not as simple as having set, easy to identify codes, not when boards have micro processors etc. The idea of simply plugging in the gun and checking if it's fine will still not catch the cheats with access to the right programmers....and those are the fish your trying to fry in the first place.

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
So - how would you word such a rule for it to have the inteded effect - and NOT catch a lot of innocents on assumption alone?

The gun rules as they are written in the PSP and Millennium rulebooks don't really need to be changed, at least as far as the definition of what is legal or not. How a cheater gets caught doesn't have to be explained in minute detail just like the police don't have to explain to me how their radar or camera systems work to bust me, even when thousands of other speeders don't get caught the same day. Concerning penalties, the Millennium penalties are relatively toothless because they only call for an individual suspension and not for short play.

I obviously still make myself unclear, or something seems to be breaking down in the communication here. Please don't be offended when I ask didactically:

¤ Can you hear the difference between 15bps and 25bps? Can others or am I the only person with some supertuned hearing?

¤ Is 25+bps humanly possible with today's technology assuming one-pull, one-shot?

¤ Can a referee with a normal IQ who has been exposed to a full season of 15bps hear when a gun starts shooting at the speed at which a gun's ball detection system allows a Halo-type hopper to feed it?

¤ Can a decent referee manager train referees--paid or Div 1--to only penalize those violators who are clearly cheating as described above? Just like referees are trained and encouraged to only penalize wiping only when there is absolutely no doubt to the referee in question?

If you can answer yes to any of the above questions then wherein lies the possibility of catching any, much less, a lot of innocents?

 

[Edd Hobday]

Could there not be a short term half way point until a better solution is found?

Give the judges powers to penalise players that they deam to be using gun cheats, but make these these penatlies comparable to wiping, for example a 1-4-1/2-4-1 etc. Also along with this apply extremly harsh penalties to anyone you can actually PROVE was using a cheat.

This way you have slightly more of a deterant without giving anyone the chance to overly abuse their power.

What you think?
-EDD

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by Red Ring Inflictor
The gun rules as they are written in the PSP and Millennium rulebooks don't really need to be changed, at least as far as the definition of what is legal or not. How a cheater gets caught doesn't have to be explained in minute detail just like the police don't have to explain to me how their radar or camera systems work to bust me, even when thousands of other speeders don't get caught the same day. Concerning penalties, the Millennium penalties are relatively toothless because they only call for an individual suspension and not for short play.

I obviously still make myself unclear, or something seems to be breaking down in the communication here. Please don't be offended when I ask didactically:

¤ Can you hear the difference between 15bps and 25bps? Can others or am I the only person with some supertuned hearing?

¤ Is 25+bps humanly possible with today's technology assuming one-pull, one-shot?

¤ Can a referee with a normal IQ who has been exposed to a full season of 15bps hear when a gun starts shooting at the speed at which a gun's ball detection system allows a Halo-type hopper to feed it?

¤ Can a decent referee manager train referees--paid or Div 1--to only penalize those violators who are clearly cheating as described above? Just like referees are trained and encouraged to only penalize wiping only when there is absolutely no doubt to the referee in question?

If you can answer yes to any of the above questions then wherein lies the possibility of catching any, much less, a lot of innocents?

None of this wouldn't work for velocity though, which many people seem to have more of a problem with (although I am not entirely sure why...to my mind BPS ramping is more dangerous than FPS, though obviously both together is the nightmare scenario).

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

Originally posted by duffistuta
None of this wouldn't work for velocity though, which many people seem to have more of a problem with (although I am not entirely sure why...to my mind BPS ramping is more dangerous than FPS, though obviously both together is the nightmare scenario).

I kinda think velocity ramping is more dangerous but that's splitting hairs. It's all bad dude.

The only tools Millennium had this season and the past were a couple of hand chronies per field but those could have a least had a more deterent effect if used more often and if they snuck up behind players. The games are so rapidly paced and there's so much to look for and so few refs compared with bunkers that a whole lot of that would have been too much to realistically expect.

The real solution is unfortunately expensive and that is the Pro Stalker radar speed guns used by NXL which can get measurements from several meters behind players. They cost $1500.

Then another problem is the fact that the penalties are quite lame. Simple elimination in Mill for 301-310 and a 1-4-1 for over 310. I don't know how the penalties could be made harsher without punishing the relatively innocent because the intention to shoot harder/faster would be very difficult to prove.

 

[EyeFellOva]

$1500 or a players sight? Not a hard decision imo

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

Money is definitely a more measurable commodity than peeps eyesight or lives but the money don't grow on trees. For Mill or NPPL that would be at least one per field x 5 or 6 x the same number of warm bodies who might need flights, hotel, transport, food, water and pay 'cause the operators wouldn't realistically get to do much reffing besides the FPS monitoring. NXL uses two per their one field and the operators have other reffing as a secondary priority.

The main thing is that they substantially have the velocity thing locked down even if the penalties aren't really harsh because they know they are constantly being monitored. Besides an elimination or a player stuck in the sin-bin can seriously hamper a team's results.

 

[Robbo]

And whilst we all talk and Nick (and others) bemoan the true effectiveness of my proposals, the dice are rolling............snake eyes anyone, or was that some poor schmuck's left eyeball whizzing across the field?

Judges can make that call, let's use them and coupled with effective deterrent penalties, it's a temporary bandage I agree but doing nothing is worse, especially when we have cheating scum-**** teams like we know play our circuits.

But hey, let's just keep talking eh......after all, we are good at that ain't we !

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

1 - Can you hear the difference between 15bps and 25bps? Can others or am I the only person with some supertuned hearing?

2 - Is 25+bps humanly possible with today's technology assuming one-pull, one-shot?

3 - Can a referee with a normal IQ who has been exposed to a full season of 15bps hear when a gun starts shooting at the speed at which a gun's ball detection system allows a Halo-type hopper to feed it?

4 - Can a decent referee manager train referees--paid or Div 1--to only penalize those violators who are clearly cheating as described above? Just like referees are trained and encouraged to only penalize wiping only when there is absolutely no doubt to the referee in question?

1 - Are you proposing that it is ok to shoot 24 BPS under your new rule - or 23 - or 22??.... I ask again - how would you word a rule that allows refs to deem a gun to be shooting "too fast"? - point being that if you make it as simple as you and Pete seem to want - a ref might just as well say "I think you are shooting 16 BPS - you're outta here for a year".

2 - We all know it isn't - but why are you hung up on 25 BPS?

3 - Yep - but that is still not the point.

4 - In theory yes - but all the while players ARE penalized wrongly... which we accept, because the penalties are not THAT harsh... but once you start talking "ban for the event" or "ban for a year" - or whatever harshness you want to impose on players under this new rule, for it to be effective - it is an entirely different (and more serious) matter.

Let me put it another way:

You mentioned speed traps.... while the police is not obligated to tell you how they work - they ARE obligated to document you were speeding.

What you guys seem to want to introduce, is similar to a copper being able to stand on the curve, with no technology available, and just write up any car going by he "feels" is speeding.... and then to top it off, you want to replace the "normal" speeding ticket, with a much harder penalty.

You guys seem to have a great deal of trust in the abilities of paintball refs - I applaud you for that... but I cannot agree with the sentiment - sadly.

Nick