Ton Tons @ CC

[Robbo]

Nick, and while you strive for absolute proof and consequently do nothing about them, they will continue to endanger the safety of others with no care.

Nick, me and you both know, we are never gonna have absolute proof of their deeds in the past but you know me well enough not to have jumped on these *******s unless I was sure.

Now, what would you prefer to hand the safety of your team over to, the Ton Ton's word that they are not using them (bearing in mind their disciplinary record thus far and what has happened) or would you rather believe me.........?

It's a no-brainer mate and I don't believe for one second you would send your players out against them with all that has gone on and based upon the 'word' of anybody from the Ton Tons.

That team needs to be disbanded and all of them banned from playing again...in my opinion that is.
If we don't do this, then we, as other teams, must refuse to play them until they are disbanded.

We have to take control here and not wait for the Millennium guys to catch them otherwise we are gonna have a long wait and maybe Nick, if we don't act, a few of the Ducklings eyes could well be winging their way across a paintball field somewhere in Madrid...not a pleasant thought mate.

 

[Matski]

I agree Nick that the Series is partly to blame, a 141 effectively makes it 'worth the risk' whereas if the potential punishment was say 541 they might think about it a bit more. Still, I think it just distracts from the fact that, to a large extent, it should be the players responsibility to ensure that their gun is safe and if they do use dwell ramp- they deserve to reap the trouble they've sown.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Another significant point is, that it seems many people think "everyone is doing it, so we should also".... well first of all I think that is wildly inaccurate, especially in the Millennium Series... and secondly, the absence of rules, procedures and technology to eliminate the problem, is the reason people are in a position to think that way - and the responsibility for that again falls back squarely on the shoulders of the organisers.

Nick

Nick, I think you are right to draw a distinction between the Millennium and NPPL in that the prevalence of gun cheats in the Millennium is significantly less..I think it is, much less.

I talked to the guys on the Tigers over last weekend in San Diego and they convinced me they do not use cheats either and so I am left to consider the possibility it is just us dumb schmuck Englanders that haven't yet embraced the dark side in favour of 'not joining what you can't beat'.
The top pros openly talk about what cheats they have (not velocity ramping I hasten to add) and they can do this because they work on the assumption that since 'everybody must be doing it' (in their heads, which for the most part, most are) then it's ok to talk openly on the subject.

A lot of these guys are friends of mine and I suppose given the prevalent circumstances of cheating, I shouldn't judge them too harshly but when this behaviour becomes so endemic, it kinda makes me wanna shoot the lot of them out of frustration.

When cheating becomes this bad, and so accepted, and so openly talked about, it's hard to assume anything other than a tacit acceptance from the promoters and organisers; now I know this isn't the case and this is probably why I am still involved otherwise I would quit this cheat laden sport in a heartbeat.

The NPPL and Millennium truly do want this all to stop but it's just like getting into the ring with Mike Tyson with your hands tied and blindfolded, the respective tournament circuits just haven’t got the tools to cope.

 

[Fab HALMONE]

Hi every one,
in what i read there is a lot of things wich doesn t make sense, kinda weired that it come from people who are usually smart.
Nick must be the closest to the reality.
Peter, with all the respect that i have for you , you have overpast the limit by far ... and I can say I don t even reconise the Pete that i know.
i m gonna talk here not just for the tonton, but just reacting at some very silly post.
you should know pete that a trial work with proofs, that s how law is ruled, you accused somebody when you have proof and then you take the judgment when and ONLY when you have proofs...and you don t have any more proof than they will have if they accuse Nexus to have ramping modes, you just cannot makes justice the way you want it doesn t work like that.you re talking down a name wich have sponsors, and even players wich are making a living out of the sport, it is not something to do.
and you re like talking if the velocity ramping is somthing new, but tell me why we had those yellow chrono to get the velocity on the field, why does the psp get this expensive radar .. and as far as i know the tonton don t play the psp ... there is a reason and it is that ramping rate of fire and velocity as been around for a long time, in x ball we can see the speed of the guns wich are chronoed, i can remember that one of the miami effect had the high score of 370 ... i agree it is criminal to play at that velocity in x ball, but that wasn t a tonton...if you want to fight this and if you want to beat the tonton up , you ll have a way more people to fight with , the only way to stop it, the NXL has it.the only way you can prove that a gun as a ramping mode will be to chrono it when ot shoot full speed or to read the assembler program wich is written in the microchip, and has every body protect it, it is not for soon ...and when somebody take the example of hokey, every one should no that paintball is a way safer than most of the sport , race car is more dangerous,hokey , skiing, and what about boxing.... i d rather get shot at 400 fps than getting punch by lenox lewis, or even dave stuart. and when you talk about the fact they should be banned for life, may i remeber you that you ve been playing for a team , with a great name, with the worst people that the sport has ever seen, i may not say everything that happen with this team, but you and a lot of your team mates could and maybe should have been banned in paintball for life, and that a good thing they didn t do it, because as i know you and those people , you re a great person and that would have been a mistake to bann any of you .
but just look behind you and be more calm about this subject, you re defenetly not the one in the best position to talk about the safety on the field after what happened with some of your old team mates.you know everyone in this sport, maybe just try to have everybody talk together, i think that would bring more solution than just trowing up on tonton on this forum.
for the answer of the canadian if the tontons are out of control and their gun to ... i think he is out of his mind ...
so peter, you know the admiration i have for you , and i know you as somebody who is not the one who talk like this.. i don t know why you get so mad at them, specially as you know laurent and franck and you could talk directly to them.
i hope every one will have a smart dialogue.

see you


fab

 

[Robbo]

Fab, not once did you deny the Ton Tons were using velocity ramping, not once mate.
Your defence of their position was as I said, you accused ME of being unfair because I was picking on them because many others were using velocity ramping.
I disproved this when I told you I don't know of many others and when Todd Adamson backed up what I said, you still wanted to believe many others were doing it just so's it would somehow justify the use of velocity ramping by the Ton Tons.

These guys are cheats, they can't stop cheating Fabrice, just look at their last two appearances at events, Millennium they get 3 players banned, and in San Diego, they get another.
They are scum !!!!!!!!

Now Fabrice, just because I don't agree with you on this does not mean I have lost my brains, it merely means you are wrong !!
I am not going to get into this any more with you as I value our friendship a lot more than arguing about these cheating *******s.

This is my last word on the subject with you.

 

[Chicago]

Whoa whoa whoa...

Back up.

ADOC is *NOT* cheating unless it produces a shot in excess of 300 fps. And changing dwell isn't cheting unless it changes FPS.

What *IS* cheating is being able to change the settings of the marker on the field - so if you crank a knob and your velocity goes up, that's cheating. If you change a setting on the board, and your dwell goes up frombefore that setting was changed to after, that is also cheating.

But if when you chrono, the dwell onthe 3rd shot is 1 ms longer than the dwell on the 1st shot, and you're under 300, then there's no reason not to play that way the rest of the game. What we can't allow is people changing the setting so that AFTER they chrono, they let their dwell change more, and then before they come off the field again, they change the settings again so the dwell goes back down.


We need to just maintain a HARD line on 300 - your gun should not be allowed to shoot higher than 300 at any time for any reason. We've got all these features that are supposed to apparently prevent markers from losing velocity - let's make people use this technology to prevent markers from shooting hot.

If the leagues had some sack and actually enforced their rules, you can sure as hell bet all of this technology would start to be used to keep equipment legal instead of getting equipment to cheat. You just gota make cheating hurt more than accidentally being illegal.


CERTIFIED BOARDS. 100% effective end of the problem.

 

[Fab HALMONE]

i agree peter,
that was my last argue with you too, our friendship is defently one of the nicest thing that i get out of paintball, specially as the field side of paintball is defently not the nicest, it is not nice to say but i feel now that the pro paintball world is trash, and when i miss playing just looking at what is going on on the field i don t regret my choice, even if i miss the adrenaline of the game.
we will just keep our position on that subject,but that s no big deal,i m still always so happy to see you on tournaments, and if i haven t had the opportunity to thank you for all you ve done for fred and me i ll take this oportunity now..Thank you so much for what you ve done for us and be such a good friend.
I hope you ll do good with the Nexus for the end of the year and for next season, i like the nexus player a lot, none of them are ever arguing or yelling and in this sport , it is quite rare.
take care my friend

fab

 

[Beaker]

Whoa there Nick, make sure you are talking about the same things.

1) ABS and FSDO or whatever you want to call it DOES adjust velocity in some manner. I do not agree with it, and judging by Manike's post I'm not alone. However it is NOT currently illegal so if people use it (hell I did it all this year) then so be it, but I personally would like to see it banned in a general tightening of gun rules.

2) What Manike, John C and I are all talking about is the Ton Ton board apparently having the advertised feature of velocity ramping. That's in a string of shots the velocity will up, although exactly by how much we don't know.

I repeat the Ton Ton board has blatant, open, advertised velocity ramping. That is what we are talking about, NOT whether they (and everyone else) use ABS,

*EDIT*

Apparently the ADOC doesn't kick in during a string, it's (another) first shot system.


My comment about the Breakout mode is that is openly advetised as being able to replicate any mode. I would be interested to see if any guns were turned off/on by a scruinteer to see if a breakout mode was activated again - hence my other comments previously about a Millennium scrutineer, and whether anyone got caught with a THump board (that has breakout modes).

 

[ptit_mat]

Scums, *******s, cheaters.... what else ?

Well, we begin to have enough of all that ****, slandering, lies and insults.
We read you'd like a tonton writes down something on this forum but we don't really want to enter this enemy field, it's more a deadly arena than a discussion forum for us. It's Robbo's Home not TonTon's, everybody is hating us here.

So, I don't know what you want to hear but WE DO NOT USE VELOCITY RAMPING , that's it.
For a lot of reasons. First of all, we don't need it the way we play and we are not crazy guys, we are not cheaters, don't want to hurt anybody.
I personaly have a company that sells the Tontons boards and I don't want to get in trouble, that's so simple..
And there is the funny reason as well that you should know, we have Shockers with the new solenoid by the way and you can't turn up the dwell and take feets lol, with this bolt system, we don't play with EGO or intimadator or any hammer/bolt guns on which you can do that.

Robbo tells lies, he even says that we have asked Smart Parts for a dwell ramping LOL ! bull**** !
I am the only one that speaks english in the team so maybe he chose my name to spit on, but unfortunately I did not know any smart parts guys, I am not Fred Halmone or Laurent.
Robbo has played with guys that used Allen wrench on the field to increase the velocity, he cannot even deny that, and today he dares to say that people that use dwell ramp are worst !! For me, it's all the same dangerous thing, using dwell or keys have the same effect : increase velocity and that's dangerous.
He and his team were cheating with wrenches by the past, so I don't know why it would be different with Nexus, why now he would have stopped using Keys or stuff like that ? Because now he is wise and not a cheater anymore ? But I don't want to debate with that. I don't really care if they are cheating or why he was cheating by the past. I don't want any war between Euros teams, the goal is to be as good as US team as I have already written in the TonTon Site News.

In San Diego we played versus Nexus and all the refs checked us with velocity/fps radars and other stuffs during the game, AND they did the same with Nexus. And it was great, we really appreciated that. We were only 6 and we didn't loose any bodies on that game. It was a perfect. I think he better should have kept his word and refused to play us, he would have felt less ridiculous. But now I can see on the forum he goes on spitting on us !
I hope to have the same reffing in the next Millennium event, I hope he will be able to do the same thing in Madrid, telling all the refs we are cheating so that there will be plenty of refs checking us and them, it can only be good for us.

BUT now he attacks my board and my company with his lies. And I will not let him defame me or my business on a public forum.
My board is 100% legal, maybe the only one that respects the ALL Millennium rules :
- Ramping begins after achieve 7.5 bps (and not 5 bps)
- 65 ms between each balls
- Stop firing when the trigger is release
- Not storing shoots...
Anyone can test it on an oscilloscope or use a good radar as SP have and you'll see it is legal and it have no dwell compasation.
I'd like to check all the boards that are used because I saw plenty of guys shooting (faster than 7.5 bps) with only one finger for instance...

So I hope all that **** will stop especially things that deal with my board and company. And if this thread about TonTon board goes on as well, I will do more that write a post I'm afraid, because money is involved, and I cannot let my company be attacked like that. I have never seen Robbo telling ****s on Bob Long that created Ramping on his intimidator, neither on Vitue Paintball Boards, neither on Frenzy Boards etc...

Everybody knows Robbo acted like that with Predator then Aftershock wanting to boycott them whan he was on Nam.
Then, he played with ****ing cheaters he criticised few months ago, guys that shot at 380 fps, was using liquid Co2 to shoot stronger and now he dares to attack us using his image ?
How is it possible ? A guy that hit player with his fists on tourney, even cops had to come one day ! And everybody let him talk about safety on Pb event ?
Are you all kidding me ?
Once again I don't see the goal to post here where he is considered as a god and as a wise man !! It will be the one and only post down here.
If you go on defaming on us, we will act another way.

So, to make it clear again :
WE DO NOT USE VELOCITY RAMPING.
WE DON'T PLAN OR WANT TO USE VELOCITY RAMPING.
WE CAN'T USE VELOCITY RAMPING.

The TonTon Team.

 

[ptit_mat]

Reloaded Board by FCP

My name is Vincent Clerc. I am the founder and CEO of French Connection Paintball (FCP) and the designer of the Reloaded board.

I'd like to make things clear.

The Reloaded[TM] is a commercial Product. SO please, do not associate the Reloaded and the TONTON.


Yes, TONTONs are using my board, but hundreds of other players are using it and with great satisfaction!


I try very hard to give the Reloaded users the best a board can give.

This means adding new functionalities like Breakout or adjustable ROF.

So please don't mix up what you read in the documentation (which explains what the board can do) and the way it is used by some players.

I freshly added breakout mode and ROF to keep up the pace with TADAO, Virtue Boards, and other board builders that have recently announced the same modes.

What I have read here is full of non sense.

Let me explain some things:

"Manike" says "OK... so they just admitted to having velocity ramping." when quoting a part of the Reloaded 2.00 firmware update "First of all, we added a ROF concept, that is automatically compensate for DWELL adjustment to guaranty an accurate "ball per second" adjustment"

First THEY admit nothing. Their use the BOARD and only use IT. I designed it, I program it and I write the documentation.

The TONTONs only offered me to promote the board... So THEY have nothing to do with the way the board functions!!!!!!

Being the creator of this firmware, I'll explain “Manike” what the sentence he quoted means, because he's mixing things up.

If on one hand, the user is allowed to putt a certain value in the DWELL parameter, and if on the other hand, the programmer (ME) hardcodes a recharge time considering a mean value entered by the user.

You will get a ROF that is approximately around the expected ROF. Because you can't know at program time what the user will set in the DWELL value. So, respecting the rules edicted by the different tournements, like the MILLENNIUM or of the PSP becomes very hard.

That was actually the way the 1.5x firmware was functioning...

In the 2.00 firmware, I have taken this limitation into account. So now, the board makes a calulation at run time, right after the DWELL has been set by the user, so that if the ROF (which is also adjustable by the user) is set to 15, it is actually 15. Not 15.6. Not 14.2 but 15 just as set.

So this has nothing to do with velocity ramping!!!!!!! The DWELL parameter set by the user is strictly respected. The ROF is strinctly respected. It's something that is invisible to the user that is adjusted by the board: THE RECHARGE TIME.

Which is the time, the gun HAS to wait before starting a new cycle of shoot.

'Hope it's clearer now...

To answer to "Beaker", pointing out the "Breakout" mode.

Yes, the board has a Breakout mode, just like other boards in the market have!

If you read the documentation correctly, you should have noticed that I also specify that the breakout will jump to the FCP mode.

This is hard coded and can not be changed by the user.

FCP is also clearly identified as a non legal GAMETYPE. But if you read correctly, I wrote in bold that the reloaded can not set the GAMETYPE for you !!!!

This means that if you use the breakout mode, you'll jump to FCP. So you should not use this MODE in tournament.

The FCP mode is a special mode for training and fun. It's highly customisable but it is the responsibility of the player to put the board in the correct GAMETYPE given the tournament he participates...

I can not do this for him, nor can the board detect the tournament you are playing in!!!!!

So, please do put the blame on the board!!!!! For Christ sake!!!!! I am not a magician, nor am I M. Spoke!!!

So please don't ask me impossible things!

You mentioned the breakout mode, but said nothing on the other modes!

Did you notice that the board offers a MILLENNIUM mode, a PSP mode and an NXL mode that are a 100% compliant with the rules !!!!!

I am ready to put my board on a bench, and compare its timing accuracy with any board on the market.

I am pretty sure that the reloaded is the most accurate board of the market at this time and the board that gives its user

the most confidence in timing respect with regard to the RULES of MILLENNIUM, PSP, and NXL!

To answer to "John C" (and "Manike") that says "The TonTon shocker board has something called ADOC, automatic drop off control".

Yes, you are right. ADOC stands for Automatic Drop Off Control. Which functions this way. If your are in FCP mode and if your gun stays inactive for more thant 20 seconds, the first shot will be boosted with an adjustable value (user defined).

This ADOC system is only available in FCP mode (NOT in MILLENNIUM, NPPL, PSP and NXL mode because it is strictly forbiden by the rules).

Remember that FCP mode is firstly designed for fun and training. When you are training you don't want to play with your spuigy all the Sunday.

So even if you don't fire for a long period, you don't have to worry of the first shoot. It won't be stuck in the barrel!!!

This is something that many "Big Game" Players asked for because they often play "duck" hunt...

Only the first shoot is boosted. Only the first ONE!!!! What ADOC fights is the electrical loses in the capacitors that feed the solenoid.

And more than that, this boost given to the first ball after 20 seconds of inactivity is just enough to blow the paintball out of the gun.

This avoids the first paintball to be stuck in the barrel and being sprayed out by the following paintball that are at the correct velocity.

So, "John C", what you suppose is wrong. ADOC does NOT means "that it increases the dwell when you are shooting fast, to 'combat drop off'.".

If you want to combat drop off, ask Smart Part to redesign their guns!!!

As I mentioned above ADOC is NOT ACTIVATED in LEGAL tournament modes!!! But, even it was, BUT IT IS NOT, what player would wait for 20 seconds in a tournement just to get the ADOC shot and see the paintball fall 2 feets in front of him...

It's not serious!!!

I insist on that last point: please, once again, don't mix the TONTONs and the RELOADED.

If you want them to be banished from the tournament, that’s fine. If they deserve it, it's OK for me!

Do they have bounce or tricks on their gun, I don't know.

I can remember of the dynasty being caught with auto response or even near full because of the bounce, but no one asked for TADAO boards to be banished from official tournaments!!!!!!

So please don't point out the board!!!! The TONTONs have been given normal boards. They even paid for their boards (not much, but they paid)!!!

I am not responsible for what 7 players do with their boards...

Please, think of those hundreds of happy customers that use my Reloaded and won't understand why this board should be banned from the tournaments!!!!

Don't make any (false) assumptions about the software unless you perfectly know what you say. And at least contact me if you want to know something! Please.

Would you banish the BMW cars from the roads because of this BMW driver that killed people because he was driving at 160mph??

It doesn't seam faire for BMW, no???

So, LET THE RELOADED out of this mess!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It’s a fair alternative to American boards and it’s European… So please, don’t kill my efforts with your stupid war against the TONTONs!!!!

Another thing, an US board have been banned (the advantage board I think) because it proposed a secret cheat sequence to activate cheats mode. People could customise his own cheats code on demand. WE DO NOT PROPOSE THAT. Once you select a mode you can't swap with another. All the programmation can be done only if the grip is opened, it's a mandatory rule, written in any rules book. We are compliant with all the rules. I know a lot of boards that can be programmed with buttons that are on the frame and not INSIDE the grip... those are not compliant and I didn't see any complains on them. So please don't mix up things.

VC

CEO and Founder of FCP"