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Tampa brief on the road to Connecticut

Chicago

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Depends on the info. If you say "NPPL is actually spending $100,000 per event on reffing, because they have to pay for this, this and that...", and those are smart things to spend money on, I'll say 'My bad'. Or if Missy can actually demonstrate NPPL is generally paying $250/ref/day in compensation (even including travel/hotel/etc).

But I'd be extremely surprised if either were the case.

I should have been more specific in the original post - I used the generic word "reffing" to refer to reffing wages. You've taken that to mean reffing in it's entirity, and argued that I'm an idiot to think NPPL only spends $18,720 on reffing each event.

Of course, that's silly, but it's beside the point - $18,720, less than 3% of the event budget, is far, far, far too little to be spending on referee compensation. Even if you tack on some extra bodies for the Pro fields to get you up to $22 or $23k it's far too little.

And while I'm sure there is other money spent on the reffing effort, beyond paying Dan, NPPL seems to have done a very "good" job of making sure it's as little as possible. No cold water provided for refs, no food provided for refs, and seemingly (according to Shamu and folks I've talked to) no hotel or other travel reimbursements. Plus hitting refs with things like greater tax burden and "recertification fees".

NPPL *USED* to do things like bring entire crews of refs in from Europe, back when NPPL reffing was much, much, much better. Is anyone arguing with this? That NPPL isn't spending nearly as much as they need to or used to to provide good refs? What happened?


WHO IS RESPONSIBLE? I say that NPPL is in charge of referees, so NPPL must be responsible. You say I just have an anti-NPPL agenda. If so, who has actually bumbled the reffing?
 

Chicago

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MissyQ said:
Is that your problem then Chicago, that the league has been hijacked from the players?
If PP had not stepped in to support the NPPL do you know where it would be now? Nowhere! Not only that, but there would be one league, the PSP, and you would be able to pick up the NPPL name for a song. NPPL shirts would be considered 'old skool', and you would still be spending 2 hot weeks every summer at Rennicks feild, which would be considered one of the best events of the season.
Its not like the players had a problem with what the PSP were doing. They didn't start any kind of 'movement', PP did. You want to talk about who took away the players involvement - go speak to Jerry and his cronies, that was before PP even had a stake. That was the reason PP got involved. Your whole ethos is skewed.
Whoa, whoa, back up. I wholeheartedly support PP's efforts. I also have no qualms with leagues not being run as player's leagues. Not a big fan of paintball companies running paintball leagues, but that seems to be what we're stuck with for now and I can't say that I've seen any direct problems with WDP's involvement in PP, and backing PP defintiely drove some great improvements in national paintball through their own efforts and the competition that has resulted.

What I DO have qualms with is people CLAIMING they are a player's league when they are not, and having responsibilities that they fail to meet. Near as I can tell, PP has been doing a great job meeting their responsibilities. And near as I can tell, I havn't said one negative thing about PP in this thread. But the reffing at NPPL events has gone to crap, and the reffing is NPPL's responsibility. There was not some cataclysmic event outside of NPPL's control that caused reffing to be poor. Reffing has been getting progressively worse for at least a year, it should have been obvious to NPPL, and instead of taking proactive action to reverse the slide in quality, they appear to have actively decided to take actions to MAKE THINGS WORSE.


So, what's wrong with saying that? Are we disputing that there has been horrible turnover in reffing for NPPL events? Are we disputing that the NPPL reffing budget has gotten smaller? Are we disputing that charging your referees to get recertified is a bad idea? Can you seriously say that NPPL has put a best-effort into providing quality reffing?

And even if they have, and it has gotten this ****ty anyway, is any action short of removing NPPL's direct involvement in reffing sufficient to fix the problem?

NPPL is not the victom of "bad reffing rays from space". Either the reffing is bad because of neglect, or it's bad because of incompetence. I can't see how either of those can be mostly Dan Perez's fault, so if the problem is going to be fixed, there must be much more significant change than just replacing Dan and continuing on with the 'usual suspects'. If there was something OTHER than NPPL at fault here, I'd blame that, but I don't see what else can be the cause.
 

dissent

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May 25, 2006
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Thought I'd throw some fuel to the flamefest by wondering outloud...

Is it cynical of me to wonder why all of the sudden there is an outcry (from the people 'in power') of bad reffing when horrendous calls have been striking several teams left and right from advancing? Or is it because a certain company, which sponsors certain teams....hell with the pretense...because WDP sponsors Joy and Rage and both of those teams had a good shot at advancing on and were on the receiving end of some crappy calls?

Is that why all of the sudden people at the top care? Or is it now they're just fed up?

Because bad calls have been going on for sometime now, and the standard line usually is, "It sucks, we're not perfect, we do our best, better luck next time, or make sure you play so well in the future to remove the refs from the game".

At the bare minimum, if it took WDP's teams feeling the burn to finally bring some change forward that's still a good thing. But it's unfortunate if it's the case that all those other teams shooting the other guys' guns had to wait so long for Joy to finally start tearing it up on the field and then get screwed before certain WDP "higher ups" got fed up. If that's the case that is... :cool:

All conjecture of course, but at the bare minimum, it raises the question of should we have a company which manufactures a product & sponsors pro teams soley involved & responsible in an organization, reffing, etc.

ps - that last line is under the pretense that Chuck actually doesn't do anything, other than look like he's important and has a lot to do. Could be wrong there, but it's been my impression that PP & WDP pretty much take care of everything (which is why there are A LOT of things right in the NPPL)
 

Mario

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Sep 25, 2002
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well, no. Pretty much everyone that went to tampa said the reffing sucked. Hell baca who is part of a non WDP team started this whole thread...

I wonder who you are as well. You've obviously registered yourself just for this thread :)
 

shamu

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Apr 17, 2002
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Beaker said:
Also, just to keep this fair and even. Anyone want to call Lane and find out how much the PSP pays their refs. Then we can pass the hate around.
Oddly, I know the answer to that too.

If it makes it easier, I can simplify the arguement:

Money alone is not a significant factor in the loss of experienced refs. The league covered travel expenses (hotel and airfare), plus the pay. The factors that resulted in most refs leaving (at least the ones I've talked to) are not directly related to how much was in the pay envelope at the end of the event.

Until refs are paid significantly more (in the thousands of dollars per event, not hundreds), money will not be a key determining factor in developing and maintaining a quality reffing crew.

Lest anyone think I'm just a disgruntled former ref - I'd like to see both PSP and NPPL improve their reffing programs. I love paintball, not politics.

Missy - get in touch if you want to talk offline.
 

shamu

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Apr 17, 2002
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Beaker said:
I'm not taking sides, but last time I looked Shamu is/was an NPPL ref. Hell we even had a pic of him in the magazine in a compromising position ;)

.
I remember that pic. Who was I checking? Manning?

Yup - He even bought you dinner afterwards I hear
 

dissent

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May 25, 2006
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The thread starter complained...a lot of people have complained. I've never seen anything done until now.

So...now they are "fed up" of all the complaints and decided to act...or the more cynical side of me would suggest they are upset because the burn was closer to home in Tampa.

Maybe a combo of the two...who am I?

I'm Batman!:p
 

Beaker

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shamu said:
Money alone is not a significant factor in the loss of experienced refs. The league covered travel expenses (hotel and airfare), plus the pay. The factors that resulted in most refs leaving (at least the ones I've talked to) are not directly related to how much was in the pay envelope at the end of the event.
When you say covered is that "used to" or still does.

Want to give us a run-down of the factors that the NPPL refs have left / not come back over?
 

Mario

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Sep 25, 2002
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Beaker said:
When you say covered is that "used to" or still does.

Want to give us a run-down of the factors that the NPPL refs have left / not come back over?
someone wants an article written for them...:rolleyes: