Tampa brief on the road to Connecticut

[Magued]

Chicago.

Im sorry but this is a seroius issue and you and your anti NPPL agenda is taking away energy from the problem.

You cant count the money NPPL puts on the reffing by just calculating on 1 cost= salerys.

Its like you are insulting our intelligence by trying to score cheap points.
Can anybody put some light on why Chicago is on the NPPL every chance he gets?

Back to the issue.
NPPL have tried to do clinics ets for their reffs, I dont really understand why after all this time they still havent been able to produce enough good ones?
Who is doing the clinics? Also why are they not using Boogie as a head reff?
In my mind he is the best.

My suggestion would be that Lane and Bart or Chuck gets together and start working on building a reffing squad that can do the job on both series. Let Boogie be the head of this team and let HIM train the reffs. PAY HIM GOOD!
It will cost much more than it does now, but they dont really have a choice!

Magued

 

[MissyQ]

I'm not so sure he has a specific agenda, I think he's just a twat.
Certainly his last post is entirely 'twat-talk', which is the only reason I am able to ignore his pathetic attempts at accusing the NPPL of embezzlement.
I doubt the lawyers would see it that way, as they are also twats, but thats his problem, not mine.
Fortunately he is also an idiot, and chooses to put his unsubstantiated and libelous **** in writing....

Chicago, you have just sunk another 12 rungs in my estimations, which effectively puts you in the basement with all the other trash. Go **** yourself off someplace else, there are people here trying to be positive and do some good.

 

[Chicago]

Isit my anti-NPPL agenda, or the 'NPPL can do no wrong' agenda that is the problem? I just call it like I see it. For example, for three years PSP has had ****ty reffing, we've all known PSP has ****ty reffing, and we have all said PSP has been screwing up by having ****ty reffing. In 2003 and 2004, NPPL had pretty damn good reffing, because NPPL cared about the players, split from PSP, and did things right.

Now, PSP reffing is getting much better this year, and NPPL reffing has gone to crap, and it seems the attitude is that the crappy NPPL reffing is merely an "unfortunate set of circumstances".

I call bull****. NPPL used to be very good at providing good refs and now they are very bad at it and it can not be an accident. It looks very much like the reffingbudget for 2006 compared to 2003 has been slashed, and the priority attached to maintaining a solid reffing program appears to have been severely reduced.

There are only so many people involved in organizing reffing for NPPL: Chuck, for a while Phil, and then Dan. Are yu seriously suggesting that the reffing problems this year are mostly Dan's fault? If that's the case, then great, get rid of Dan, install Ron Kilbourne or whoever, and everything will be fine.

But if NPPL is spending a total of $18,720 an event on referee wages, and it's not because Dan PErez got a $60,000 event budget and paid himself $30,000/event, the problem is NOT just Dan Perez, and pretending that NPPL isn't the problem and you can just swap guys and fix it is silly.

Maybe I should have been more specific:

Spending $18,000 an event on the referees and expecting a good result is downright stupid.

You are right that there are more costs to reffing than just the refs - but in NPPL's case, what are they? Some overhead on Dan Perez, but from what I've been told, they don't spend anything on travel for refs, they don't provide any food or water or apparent supplementary staff (other than the $25/day food allowance already factored in), so that leaves.. what, jersies? Assuming they are not donated by CSG. (Worst case, $20/jersey would make it $19,000 an event.) Also factor in that some of Dan is paid for by charging $100/ref for certification classes and $35/ref in recertification fees.

Hell, NPPL doesn't even pay the employer share of taxes, they 1099 everyone, which means the refs lose another 7% of their money covering employer taxes.

I also have to question whether you've got a good understanding of what it takes to have a solid reffing program if you're recommending Boogie for the job. Boogie is a SPECTACULAR on-field judge. I have no doubt that he can also do a great job training refs.

But the person you are looking for also needs to run the program from an administrative level, and I think that's really actually more important than how well you train the refs in the certification classes. You have to know which refs do well in the classes, which refs do well at the events, how much of a budget you need, how to best spend it, how to prmote your reffing organization, etc. If you asked Boogie himself, I'm 99% sure he'd tell you he wanted nothing to do with any of that (I've had a similar conversation with him personally), and if need be, the person you hire to run the program (I agree Ron would be a good choice if you can work out the politics with his pro team involvement, maybe even isolate him from direct involvement on the Pro field) could hire Boogie to be a head ref and train refs.


The important thing is this problem goes beyond the usual "it's tough to find qualified officials to ref paintball tournaments". This goes to a series of willful decisions about budget and fees ($35 recertification fee?) that indicate a problem with whoever is making the decisions. While trying to put all that on Dan may make for the best press release, it doesn't solve the problem either. If this is going to be fixed, you can't pretend that NPPL has been doing a good job with bad people. They've been making extremely poor decisions in regards to referees and I think the only way to fix it is to hand over the correct amount of dollars to someone who is given full authority to run the program as they see fit without further interference from the people who got the "program" into the position it is currently in.

NPPL can't just "pretend" there's a PRO referee program anymore, they are going to need to actually have one, including an actual person in charge of it and an actual, reasonable, budget for it.

 

[MissyQ]

Mag,
your question about where do all the refs go once they have been trained, and why aren't there enough good ones by now, is one I have asked many times. The problem is that once they have done it once they often don't want to do it again. The players treat them like ****, and they don't get enough support elsewhere to balance that out. hence they end up in a negative appreciation situation, which sucks after working so hard. There are very good refs out there, but when inexperienced refs are also on the field the good ones often spend more time fighting fires than preventing them.

 

[MissyQ]

Chicago, if you want to get into specifics, do some fcuking research. When you get your facts straight, come back and make some fcuking sense.
If you had ANY idea of the financials involved, you would be interesting, but you clearly (and I mean REALLY obviously) don't, so you are just making up unsubstantiated crap as you go along. This is something I have had to call you on many times, but for some reason you don't think it's important to be correct in the information you are basing your posts on. Do you know how stupid this looks to someone who knows what they are talking about?

I can't see one thing (and I am being deadly serious) in your post that is factually correct. Don't be an even bigger moron Chicago, find out what you are talking about. I would have told you some numbers myself, but fcuk that, you burnt that bridge 5 posts ago. I have seen 13 yr olds on PB nation that have a better, and more balanced, grasp of what it costs to run a reffing crew. Leave the agenda at home and stop using lies to back up an already flawed argument.


One more thing - you are doing the speech-mark thing again, which means you are claiming that people have said the statements in your post, which is a lie. There are some sensible things in your post that actually make sense, but you lose them in the untruths and made-up statements you employ to make yourself seem more knowledgable.

"I call bull****" - you've got some ****ing nerve kid.

 

[Chicago]

Chicago, if you want to get into specifics, do some fcuking research. When you get your facts straight, come back and make some fcuking sense.

I am not privy to the NPPL referee budget. I am only privy to what I have been told by people who have reffed for NPPL. What I have been told by people who have reffed for NPPL is in line with the numbers that Shamu mentioned earlier.

I understand that you probably are, or could be, privy to the NPPL referee budget. So, if my numbers, based on second hand information from people who have reffed for NPPL, are not correct, why don't you tell us what the pay scale for NPPL referees is, along with approximately how many referees at each event are at various levels of the scale? How about you tell us what some of the additional costs of reffing alleged by Magued are?


You are always quick, when you disagree to me, to say that I am wrong because my information is bad, but you can never seem to provide any hard information yourself. Shamu says the info is right. My second-hand info says the info is right. You're the one person who can dig up the REAL info, so, if we're wrong, get us some better info.


Of course, as we've covered in previous discussions, if NPPL had not been hijacked from the players, we wouldn't need to fight about what the real information is, because the amount of money the players league spent hiring refs for the players would be public knowlege, or in the very least, available to select player/team representatives. Since NPPL isn't a player's league anymore (despite press releases to the contrary), we're just going to have the best discussion we can with the information available to us.

Saying 'your information is wrong but I'm not going to give any indication what the real information is' is weak.

 

[Chicago]

I can't see one thing (and I am being deadly serious) in your post that is factually correct.

And, com'on...

The $100 certification class is taken right from the NPPL website. Is the $35 recertification fee wrong? Is the $25/day food allowance wrong? I know CSG charges $20 or less/jersey for sponsored referee jersies; I'd suspect that NPPL gets them for free (and if they don't, there are certainly vendors who would provide them for free).

Don't hide behind your lack of any real information being somehow because of some personal affront on my part. Truth is, you don't know the info yourself, or its so close to what Shamu has come up with that telling us after making such a big deal about how wrong it is would just look ridiculous, right?

 

[Magued]

How about you tell us what some of the additional costs of reffing alleged by Magued are?
.

If I told you, would you care? Or would you just go on?

Magued

 

[MissyQ]

Is that your problem then Chicago, that the league has been hijacked from the players?
If PP had not stepped in to support the NPPL do you know where it would be now? Nowhere! Not only that, but there would be one league, the PSP, and you would be able to pick up the NPPL name for a song. NPPL shirts would be considered 'old skool', and you would still be spending 2 hot weeks every summer at Rennicks feild, which would be considered one of the best events of the season.
Its not like the players had a problem with what the PSP were doing. They didn't start any kind of 'movement', PP did. You want to talk about who took away the players involvement - go speak to Jerry and his cronies, that was before PP even had a stake. That was the reason PP got involved. Your whole ethos is skewed.

Time to get real, and get up to date. Leave your age-old agenda behind and try to help out in a positive way, rather than throwing stones at anyone who wants to improve things.

As for the numbers, I will supply them to someone else. I've gone right off you...

...and your last post demonstrates an even further lack of understanding. Think before you post. I have taken some of your posts as a personal affront. That is true. I don't like liars, never have.

 

[Beaker]

I'm not taking sides, but last time I looked Shamu is/was an NPPL ref. Hell we even had a pic of him in the magazine in a compromising position

Surely he knows how much him and his brethren get paid?

p.s. - I'm only touching the figures here, that whole other hijacking stuff is ENTIRELY between you guys.