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Tampa brief on the road to Connecticut

Chicago

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Beaker said:
Also, just to keep this fair and even. Anyone want to call Lane and find out how much the PSP pays their refs. Then we can pass the hate around.
People I know who have taken the certification class and proceed to ref their first PSP event are paid a $150/day flat rate, plus food, water and beverages throughout the day. I'm sure the NXL refs get much more than that, but I don't know what the pay scale is in between or how many refs are higher up the pay scale.

I don't think the PSP wage is enough either, although it's a much bigger percentage of PSP's budget. Where I think PSP really does better is by conditions - games scheduled are 1.5 hours shorter, cold beverages provided on-field, food provided, plus less fees and "paperwork".
 

Chicago

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dissent said:
The thread starter complained...a lot of people have complained. I've never seen anything done until now.

So...now they are "fed up" of all the complaints and decided to act...or the more cynical side of me would suggest they are upset because the burn was closer to home in Tampa.

Maybe a combo of the two
It's that Tampa was just that bad. WDP's teams getting hit are just an expected coincidence with ALL the teams getting extremely poor reffing. I'm sure they're much more concerned with the league they sponsor looking bad than the teams they sponsor not doing as well; supporting NPPL is probably a much bigger financial commitment for WDP than Rage is.
 

Magued

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dissent said:
Thought I'd throw some fuel to the flamefest by wondering outloud...

Is it cynical of me to wonder why all of the sudden there is an outcry (from the people 'in power') of bad reffing when horrendous calls have been striking several teams left and right from advancing? Or is it because a certain company, which sponsors certain teams....hell with the pretense...because WDP sponsors Joy and Rage and both of those teams had a good shot at advancing on and were on the receiving end of some crappy calls?

Is that why all of the sudden people at the top care? Or is it now they're just fed up?

Because bad calls have been going on for sometime now, and the standard line usually is, "It sucks, we're not perfect, we do our best, better luck next time, or make sure you play so well in the future to remove the refs from the game".

At the bare minimum, if it took WDP's teams feeling the burn to finally bring some change forward that's still a good thing. But it's unfortunate if it's the case that all those other teams shooting the other guys' guns had to wait so long for Joy to finally start tearing it up on the field and then get screwed before certain WDP "higher ups" got fed up. If that's the case that is... :cool:

All conjecture of course, but at the bare minimum, it raises the question of should we have a company which manufactures a product & sponsors pro teams soley involved & responsible in an organization, reffing, etc.

ps - that last line is under the pretense that Chuck actually doesn't do anything, other than look like he's important and has a lot to do. Could be wrong there, but it's been my impression that PP & WDP pretty much take care of everything (which is why there are A LOT of things right in the NPPL)
Not really.

If you made the effort reading this thread I posted here that we didnt miss anything due to bad reffing. We had some bad calls on the Saturday but managed to go thru anyway.

Magued - Joy
 

PSPLane

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Our divisional refs are paid anywhere between $100 and $200 per day for field refs.
Some refs receive travel allowances. Some receive housing allowances. Some receive transportation allowances.
All refs are given lunch, cold water, and Gatorade type drinks. All refs receive a reffing jersey.
All refs are required to have a reffing ID, but PSP doesn’t charge for this.
The NXL refs make between $800 and $1600 per event each. Their flights, rooms, and transportation are paid.
Tim Schroepfer receives an annual salary to administrate our divisional reffing program. It is more than $25K and less than $50K :) He more than earns it.

We spent $23,000+ on reffing wages for the divisional fields refs in Texas. We spent $25,000 and change on divisional field reffing in Vegas. We spend over $27,000 per event on the reffing staff of the NXL field.

These cost do not reflect the $30,000+ that was spent to start this year on radar guns, parabolic secret agent listen device thingy’s, computers, and all the other techno gadgetry to help with gun cheats. Those numbers also do not reflect the money paid to the 10 people hired, in addition to field staff, to support the reffing crew through the event. That crew also has rented carts, a mobile office to function out of, etc, etc.

The clinic we run support themselves financially. We may have actually made a hundred dollars off the 6 or 8 we have run this year.

I will say that the reffing quality should not be broken down into a simple financial equation. Spending money doesn’t solve the problem by itself. I have proven that in years past.

I have committed a tremendous portion of the PSP budget to reffing. I have over committed. I have made a terrible financial decision in efforts to improve our reffing. I think our reffing has made an obvious turn for the better. Now I have to figure out how to sustain the financing. I am open to suggestions.

I am not optimistic about great improvements being reached in reffing in the near future. The field’s designs are to blame. The guns are to blame. The dynamics of the game are to blame. The incestuous attitude of the industry is to blame. The immature behavior of the players is to blame. Financial considerations are to blame. The list goes on. I do believe Xball is a great format to minimize poor reffing and or mistakes that humans make. But, obviously, it only goes so far.

I believe the NXL field at PSP events is the single best reffed field day in and day out in the history of our sport. It is cost prohibitive to try to duplicate that on other fields. I believe the divisional reffing at PSP events has come full circle. I believe there will be continued improvements throughout this year. But, it will level off at some point. And soon after, the players will take the lack of advancement as a move backwards, and the negativity from players will start again. Then industry types, who never even watch a game, will take the word of one of their big customers cheating team as gospel – bash the refs and the leagues, and the whole cycle will start again. Reffing sucks. PSP sucks and doesn’t care about the players. They’re too greedy to pay what it takes for good reffing. Etc, etc, etc.

Reffing makes up a huge part of our over all budget. $400,000+ per year to reffing, and $700,000 to prizes is almost half our total expenses for the year. Those are two things that are financed strictly for the teams and players.

I am proud of what we have done with reffing. I am not ashamed in the least of our efforts. I have nothing to hide, because I believe we are doing more than anyone could reasonably ask of us in this regard.

At last, I would ask that you guys not turn this into a PSP vs. NPPL affair. Every disagreement doesn’t have to come back to that – does it?
 

Nick Brockdorff

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Nick, no offence, as I think you have been making a lot more sense lately, but your statement 'reffing is easy to fix' is very naive. I was involved in the Pro Reffing program back before the split, and I can assure you that all the money in the world can't buy talent and dedication.
Well, if that is the case, what CAN "buy" dedication and talent? ;)

Is your answer that Ron can?

Don't get me wrong, I think Ron is an extremely cool guy... but I honestly don't think your problem is who runs the reffing corps, but rather that the whole concept is completely underfinanced, and whatever you try to change under the current financial circumstances, will fail.

You have to realise, that paintball is different than most other sports, in that officiating is very much more difficult than in other sports, takes place over much longer time, and takes a far greater skill level than in other sports.

So, why do we insist (in the whole sport - not just the NPPL), on treating and paying refs in a way that ensures that we will get a merry mix of a few dedicated lovers of the sport, and a huge amount of village idiots?

I maintain that money IS the main issue.... there are plenty of talented people out there who would happily work for a reffing organisation, if the budget to do things right and pay people what they are worth, was there.

I know Shamu doesn't think money is the issue... and I can only go by what I experienced myself last year, and what other Scandinavian refs that went to work NPPL events said.... Which is that the money is simply not good enough to justify the long hours and the frustration of being stuck on fields with people that have no clue what they are doing, so you have to work twice as hard to cover for them.

Obviously reffing salary is not everything, and when I say money can fix the problem, I also mean money to do proper reffing clinics, money to ensure refs are at the event a day early to take part in these, money to ensure enough refs are present at an event to make sure nobody works more than 5 hours at a time without a one hour break, etc.

If the budget is there - the rest is just a question of hiring intelligent people to run the reffing corps... and even if we are talking paintball here, there are in fact a few gifted individuals here and there ;)

Now - all that having been said.... this is not really an "NPPL issue" - even if Chicago tries to make it one ;)... it is a "paintball issue". - We are having the same reffing problems everywhere in the sport.... it is just crystalized a good deal more, when the format i 7-man, and the teams are the highest profile teams in the world.... Move the exact same calls to an X-Ball setting, and the calls would have been a lot less controversial, simply because the format is different.... they would still be just as wrong, but have a lower impact on the outcome of the match.

Nick
 

Chicago

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Nick and Shamu are both right. We can't have great reffing without spending more money, in every league. We, as an industry, don't pay the referees what we need to to make it worthwhile because we, as players/teams, would rather have average reffing and cheaper entry fees.

But just because we don't have the resources for great reffing for everyone doesn't mean we should accept referees with little to no experience, and seemingly no knowlege of the rules, who sometimes appear to literally fall asleep on the field. It's not one or the other, and merely saying "reffing can't be great unless much more money is spent on it" doesn't address that reffing could still be MUCH better than NPPL's recent efforts if a LITTLE more money and a LITTLE more effort and common sense were applied.

Yes, we may need an extra $100,000 per event that we don't have for reffing for it to be great. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't feed the refs in the meantime.
 
D

duffistuta

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PSPLane said:
At last, I would ask that you guys not turn this into a PSP vs. NPPL affair. Every disagreement doesn’t have to come back to that – does it?
It won't.

As you are in charge of PSP now Lane, what would you think about sitting down with the NPPL and/or PP and trying to come to an agreement where you shared, and co-funded, a reffing corps?

Given there are a finite number of people ready, willing and able to ref, and that reffing skills are transferable between formats, it seems like a no-brainer to me.
 

Beaker

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Just to clear up how well the NPPL do take care of their refs we've got hold of a letter from Chuck to all the refs after HB. In it he says:

To be clear on what is expected of NPPL Referees please review:

NPPL refs work three days Friday, Saturday, Sunday 7:30 am to 7:30 pm.
There will be seven fields in Tampa
1 hour break for lunch
2 – 15 minute breaks during the day

The NPPL will pay for referees travel and accommodations. We do have a budget and will work to get the best rates on airfare, travel, hotel and rental car. We need your help with finding the best rates. We will make decisions based on budgetary guidelines.

The NPPL pays the following wages:

NPPL Level I Ref $100.00 per day
NPPL Senior Ref $125.00 per day
NPPL Head Refs $135.00 per day
NPPL Supervisor $600.00 per event
NPPL Scrutineer $1000.00 per event
NPPL Ultimate $1000.00 per event


Additionally the League pays $25.00 per day to each Refs to get their own breakfast and lunch. We expect the refs to go to a store or super market and buy a lunch which should include Protein and Carbs. A ref should also purchase Gatorade and some water for breakfast and lunch. We will provide a cooler so food can be stored during the day. It’s up to each ref individually to feed themselves during the event.

Refs will be provided a new lens or goggle system per event. Refs will receive one jersey per event up to a max of three Jersey’s for the year. Furthermore Ref ID cards can be used to get discounts with certain Sponsors at events only. There are many perks to being an NPPL ref and the League will continue to work hard to make the ref program better.
So they don't pay any more than $165 per day, but they do pay for travel and accomodation which is obviously a substantial cost.

So Missy was wrong and Chicago was also wrong. Happy families now?
 

Nick Brockdorff

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So, $11.25 per hour, for 12 hour workdays - on weekends.

Is that a normal salary in the US??

In Denmark, such work would mandate about $25 an hour... but then our taxes are a good deal different;)

Factoring in travel and accomodation is wholly irrelevant here, as it is only logical that the promoter should pay for that (expenses refs would not incurr, if they just stayed home).

Nick
 
D

duffistuta

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Nick Brockdorff said:
So, $11.25 per hour, for 12 hour workdays - on weekends.

Is that a normal salary in the US??

In Denmark, such work would mandate about $25 an hour... but then our taxes are a good deal different;)

Factoring in travel and accomodation is wholly irrelevant here, as it is only logical that the promoter should pay for that (expenses refs would not incurr, if they just stayed home).

Nick
I may be wrong, but federal minimum wage is, I think, $5.15 an hour.