NPPL Super 7..The real deal!!

[Wadidiz]

I also have to join the chorus on this one. I have reffed with GZ at two tournaments and we did close to a perfect job. Same with my old team, Nobodys (including local events with NPPL rules), same with Joy Division at Millenniums and same with SC Ironmen. I have been ultimate at quite a few local tournaments that gave great reffing. It obviously can be done.

I'll say it till I'm blue in the face: it just needs organization, determination and commitment from the top. It doesn't necessarily need a lot more money. More money would help though.

 

[Buddha 3]

Re: Ah but...

Originally posted by headrock6

Not enough Refs on the fields is unreasonable...Chris,get as far away from paintball as you can..

I would even go so far as to say that not having enough refs is flat out dangerous.

Chris, the fact that it's on his own field makes a difference, but not as big as you think. There will still need to be extra facilities and what not. Plus I dount the cost of renting a "cow pasture" justifies cutting back on everything else.

(And before you even try to argue against the above, yes, I KNOW what it costs to put on a major event, and I'm not talking about college ball, I'm talking about Millennium events and such)

 

[raehl]

Re: Ah but...

Originally posted by Beaker
OK so show me ONE single post/ad/flyer/press release where the PSP or ANY tournament promoter say that they are going to put on an event which will definately fall short in certain departments because they just can't afford to put on what the public expect or want, but if they paid $Xk extra it would all be OK.

There are plenty of posts out there by Lane adressing this issue, usually some variation of "we're not making nearly as much money as you think we are". And aside from vegas, what events fell short?

Show me one reason any event promoter should measure itself based on your definition of what does or does not fall short? PSP meets or exceeds the expectations of many of its customers. If they didn't they wouldn't have so many customers.

I was going to insult you here because I just can't understand how you can be so blinkered and short sighted to very very basic business issues, but then I just looked at your posts and realised you are doing everything you can to destroy any shred of credibility or respect people may have had for you as NCPA pres.

Well, glad you held back from insulting me.

I think it comes down to the fact that one of us isn't as well informed about business practices as they think they are - and I don't think I'm the one.

Rule #1 of busines:

Money in must be >= money out.

Let me know when you understand rule #1.


- Chris

 

[Tony Montana]

Buddha -

Certain people within PSP don't "get it right" or get it wrong.

Ren is definitely a bigger part of the Chicago event than Dave, and Dave is more involved in LA than Renick. But the entire group has a say in the decisions at each event, including World Cup. Jerry may have made the original plans for the World Cup, but each member knows what's going on before hand and either axes a bad decision or agrees with it.

IMHO the reason that the Chicago event stood out this year is very understandable.

1 - it is held on the grounds of a field owned and operated by one of the principles of PSP. We are able to start preparing for the event months in advance.
2 - four teams that reffed, and ran the games have years and years of experience. They are also held very accountable PERSONALLY for their reffing duties by the owners of the team who also own PSP. I don't mean to bash Dynasty or Chuck. But the teams performance as refs is FAR behind their performance as players, and obviously they are not held accountable for their reffing by the owner of their team. In Chicago, that part of the equation was not an issue.
3 - I will side with you to an extent that after Vegas, the promoters put more hands on effort into making sure things went better, as did all employs of PSP. And again, based on the relationship the people have with PSP, the refs, runners, etc.
4 - The same could probably be said for the PRO refs.

All in all, I do not believe it was based even almost entirely on Ren being the assumed promoter of this particular event. I don't mean to take anything away from Renick by any means, I just don't think the perception is the reality.

Easier place to run an event. The "hired" staff running the games has a higher than normal interest in doing a good job, and a bit more effort.

PSP could give the bit more effort at each event. But the other two aren't as easy to maintain under the currect situation.

I'm not making excuses. I'm just giving my perspective.

 

[Wadidiz]

I'm glad that Robbo isn't involved in this discussion, 'cause if he was the UK would have just felt it's first major earthquake or would suddenly be accused of breaking the nuclear test treaty.

You guys are coming up with brilliant counter-arguments to raehl and have hit with wonderful metaphors to try to enlighten him a little.

Let's face it: He ain't gettin' it. Never will. What a waste. A brain is a terrible thing...

How's the weather? Especially in LA in mid-February? Nice day if it don't rain.

STeve

 

[headrock6]

Re: Re: Ah but...

Originally posted by raehl
Show me one reason any event promoter should measure itself based on your definition of what does or does not fall short? PSP meets or exceeds the expectations of many of its customers. If they didn't they wouldn't have so many customers.





- Chris

Answer me this Chris..What other options have they got????

 

[headrock6]

Originally posted by Wadidiz

You guys are coming up with brilliant counter-arguments to raehl and have hit with wonderful metaphors to try to enlighten him a little.

It really is a shame,but he only chooses to see things from his eyes..Just because you cant see a ghetto,doesnt mean its not 15 minutes down the block...

Originally posted by Wadidiz
How's the weather? Especially in LA in mid-February? Nice day if it don't rain.


STeve

Your probably looking at mid 70's to low 80's..Thats cold for Californians....And it almost never rains in that part of Cali...

 

[Buddha 3]

Originally posted by Tony Montana
Buddha -

Certain people within PSP don't "get it right" or get it wrong.

Ren is definitely a bigger part of the Chicago event than Dave, and Dave is more involved in LA than Renick. But the entire group has a say in the decisions at each event, including World Cup. Jerry may have made the original plans for the World Cup, but each member knows what's going on before hand and either axes a bad decision or agrees with it.

IMHO the reason that the Chicago event stood out this year is very understandable.

1 - it is held on the grounds of a field owned and operated by one of the principles of PSP. We are able to start preparing for the event months in advance.
2 - four teams that reffed, and ran the games have years and years of experience. They are also held very accountable PERSONALLY for their reffing duties by the owners of the team who also own PSP. I don't mean to bash Dynasty or Chuck. But the teams performance as refs is FAR behind their performance as players, and obviously they are not held accountable for their reffing by the owner of their team. In Chicago, that part of the equation was not an issue.
3 - I will side with you to an extent that after Vegas, the promoters put more hands on effort into making sure things went better, as did all employs of PSP. And again, based on the relationship the people have with PSP, the refs, runners, etc.
4 - The same could probably be said for the PRO refs.

All in all, I do not believe it was based even almost entirely on Ren being the assumed promoter of this particular event. I don't mean to take anything away from Renick by any means, I just don't think the perception is the reality.

Easier place to run an event. The "hired" staff running the games has a higher than normal interest in doing a good job, and a bit more effort.

PSP could give the bit more effort at each event. But the other two aren't as easy to maintain under the currect situation.

I'm not making excuses. I'm just giving my perspective.

Tony,

Thanks for speaking up. Your perceptive on things is very much welcomed here, and is, I know this to be true, very well informed.

I agree that having that much time to get things organised makes it a whole lot easier. But how come, I hope you can clear this up a bit, that sometimes it takes such a long time for the location of an event to be established? Surely having secured a spot for the whole thing to take place on should be pretty high on the to do list.
Agreed on the reffing thing. I have had the dubious pleasure of watching Dynasty make a horrible travesty of their reffing duties. Can you think of any way that makes other teams as duty bound to their reffing as the Chicago crew? A number of suggestions have been kicked around on these boards, what's your take on those?

PS I in no way meant to give all credit for the Chicago event to Renick Miller. I know there is a whole crew involved in staging these things, but Renick's is just the name that is tied to Chicago, so to me he represents the whole lot. Sorry if that short changed anyone.

 

[Beaker]

Re: Re: Ah but...

Originally posted by raehl
Let me know when you understand rule #1.

The fact I've been involved in over $1.5million of business purchasing decisions on behalf of clients in the last year or so counts for nothing I guess

For instance, this July we spent $86,000 on a piece of kit even though it had an ROI of around 9 months, the business said
"we can't afford to pay for that, not in the budget"
we said
"If you don't we can't deliver projects X & Y and project Z will be delayed 12 months, plus you'll loose X'000 customers"

They paid and ROI is looking like coming in end of Feb.

It's not Money in>money out
It's Money in over X years>Money out plus investment (time and money)

 

[raehl]

The cost difference...

Isn't just in facilities rental, a lot of it also comes in with labor - I'm sure Rennick gets a lot of milage out of people who have some level of sponsorship from his field. He gets a lot of milage out of existing field staff, which are much cheaper to pay than people you hire for just 5-9 days. He can also doesn't have to pay nearly as much for setup and take down - where if you rent a location, you need to get that pace taken down the day after the event, if you own it, you can take your time - or just leave stuff up (the hyperball fields, for example, are apparently all still set up at Badlandz - not having to take them down is a big expense saver). There's savings of multiple thousands of dollars in just not having to fly staff around prior to the events to find suitable locations and negotiate their rental and pay the lawyers to look at the contracts and determine how those locations need to be set up.


The problem with web forums is most post jockeys never take the time to look beyond the surface of the problem. People are not even able to take in both parts of my arguement at once: I'm not saying we shouldn't have better events. I'm saying it is unreasonable to expect better events with the current pricing and honoring the "paintball" way of running tournaments. Some apparently think PSP events have not been good enough, I think PSP events generally provide what people pay for them. The players didn't get more in many cases because they wern't charged enough to provide it. When it comes down to entry-fee paying time, I think there are plenty of teams out there who would rather not pay the extra money it would REALLY take to get the level of reffing some people say they want.


- Chris