NPPL Super 7..The real deal!!
- Thread starter headrock6
- Start date
hehe 
And as an amusing side note, apparently I'm related to the conductor of the band who made sure they played on while the Titanic went down......
....perhaps that's why I keep getting annoyed about posts like these on the possible future of the game.
And as an amusing side note, apparently I'm related to the conductor of the band who made sure they played on while the Titanic went down......
....perhaps that's why I keep getting annoyed about posts like these on the possible future of the game.
It's not chilish.
But Chris,Im not the one running the tournaments..they choose their profession,they choose to make money from us,they chose to short change us every chance they get...If you choose to do something,do it right,not half assed...Thats my problem...
i understand that problems happen...But when they repeat themselves time and time again,you gotta wonder what the **** is going on in these peoples minds...Whats irks me most is when they throw a **** event,everyone complains and bitches,then its followed by an event that answers the critics in every way,then they follow it up with more of the same bull****...Mind boggling to say the least..I know there capable of good events..Ive seen them before...But just not on a regualr basis...Simple as that...
And ill say this for the last time.....REFFING should never be an issue...I dont give a **** about what the reasons were..I pay for a service,thats what i expect...If something unexpected comes up,better have a backup to it....No more excuses buddy..That just wont do...Not for the money and dedication some people have shown to this league...And thats why my money is still here with me..
10 Years Chris...Theres no excuse......
Baca-I was wondering where you dissapeared 2..Greener pastures on another hill??Speak Your Brains has gotten outta control and I agree,some of the threads here have gotten a little stale but i have the week off from work so i can dedicate a little time...Hope you mods dont stay away 2 long..Even Buddha's quieted down a bit...its like all the mods have left our promised land
Humbly-6
But Chris,Im not the one running the tournaments..they choose their profession,they choose to make money from us,they chose to short change us every chance they get...If you choose to do something,do it right,not half assed...Thats my problem...
i understand that problems happen...But when they repeat themselves time and time again,you gotta wonder what the **** is going on in these peoples minds...Whats irks me most is when they throw a **** event,everyone complains and bitches,then its followed by an event that answers the critics in every way,then they follow it up with more of the same bull****...Mind boggling to say the least..I know there capable of good events..Ive seen them before...But just not on a regualr basis...Simple as that...
And ill say this for the last time.....REFFING should never be an issue...I dont give a **** about what the reasons were..I pay for a service,thats what i expect...If something unexpected comes up,better have a backup to it....No more excuses buddy..That just wont do...Not for the money and dedication some people have shown to this league...And thats why my money is still here with me..
10 Years Chris...Theres no excuse......
Baca-I was wondering where you dissapeared 2..Greener pastures on another hill??Speak Your Brains has gotten outta control and I agree,some of the threads here have gotten a little stale but i have the week off from work so i can dedicate a little time...Hope you mods dont stay away 2 long..Even Buddha's quieted down a bit...its like all the mods have left our promised land
Humbly-6
R
raehl
Guest
Ah but...
All of those other professional organizations do not run their events anything like paintball events are run. Show me one of those leagues where anyone can pay the entry fee 2 weeks prior to the event and expect to play, or where over 100 teams expect to play in a single weekend, and are scheduled in 20 minute windows across 10+ fields.
Are you entitled to a good event? Absolutely. Are you entitled to a perfect event for $1750 per 10-man team?
No. There were a couple threads where I said "You can not provide the events the player wants without raising prices and/or limitting size." Most everyone said I was a moron and the greedy event promoters could do it if they wanted to.
Surprise, surprise, what is S7 having to do to make it work? Raise prices, cut the number of teams, and cut the size of the teams. All things players said didn't have to be done if the "greedy event promoters would just not take so much money".
You don't go into Ford and complain that the Escort you paid $10k for doesn't go any faster than 85 MPH and demand something faster, because Ford would politely inform you that 85 MPH is all that you paid for - even if you argued that they made $1,000 selling you the car and they're greedy *******s for making a profit instead of spending their profits giving you what you want.
Players said they did not want to pay for better events or have event size capped - yet it appears many players are going to switch to a league with higher prices and size caps. What the player complains about and what the player says they want is not the same as what the player will pay for. Headrock is a case in point: He's complaining, but his complaints are neither informed nor reasonable, so no one is going to give him what he wants. He SAID he wanted more for the same price, but he's apparently willing to pay more for an alternative that doesn't give him things he said he wanted because it does give him some other things.
Customer complaints do not necessarily reflect customer spending decisions.
- Chris
All of those other professional organizations do not run their events anything like paintball events are run. Show me one of those leagues where anyone can pay the entry fee 2 weeks prior to the event and expect to play, or where over 100 teams expect to play in a single weekend, and are scheduled in 20 minute windows across 10+ fields.
Are you entitled to a good event? Absolutely. Are you entitled to a perfect event for $1750 per 10-man team?
No. There were a couple threads where I said "You can not provide the events the player wants without raising prices and/or limitting size." Most everyone said I was a moron and the greedy event promoters could do it if they wanted to.
Surprise, surprise, what is S7 having to do to make it work? Raise prices, cut the number of teams, and cut the size of the teams. All things players said didn't have to be done if the "greedy event promoters would just not take so much money".
You don't go into Ford and complain that the Escort you paid $10k for doesn't go any faster than 85 MPH and demand something faster, because Ford would politely inform you that 85 MPH is all that you paid for - even if you argued that they made $1,000 selling you the car and they're greedy *******s for making a profit instead of spending their profits giving you what you want.
Players said they did not want to pay for better events or have event size capped - yet it appears many players are going to switch to a league with higher prices and size caps. What the player complains about and what the player says they want is not the same as what the player will pay for. Headrock is a case in point: He's complaining, but his complaints are neither informed nor reasonable, so no one is going to give him what he wants. He SAID he wanted more for the same price, but he's apparently willing to pay more for an alternative that doesn't give him things he said he wanted because it does give him some other things.
Customer complaints do not necessarily reflect customer spending decisions.
- Chris
Can someone wake me up when this is over.
I think I've caught the same flu that Robbo, Baca and Buddha 3 seem to have: I'm bored of this endless pounding and rehashing of the same arguments over and over. D-day is on the horizon soon so I'll just wait and see (I hope from a close vantage point).
On another kind-of related subject I worked this past weekend as ultimate at a 14-team (from 4 nations) indoor tournament on the Finnish island of Åland off the coast of Sweden. Joy Division was there on day 2 and did exhibition games against the winners of the tournament, which was very exciting and taught me a lot.
So, I got to do some reality checking of some of the principles of ref training and supervision that I have been discussing in the context of threads like this one.
There were a few difficulties in getting a fully uniform standard since I had never worked with the reffing team before (Voodoo, from Finland, plus Egi from Cyclone and a newbie Swedish guy). There were a few teething problems in the first few games that gave an excuse for one team that was starting to lose to leave in protest. Otherwise it went very well and all the remaining teams thought the reffing was uniformly tough but superb. The overall officíating was univerally praised by every team but the one.
I did find that I could not take a newbie and get him up to speed during the tournament, and that resulted in a handful of bad calls. In this case, also, the person admitted he couldn't hack following through with a hard call even when it was clear. So that's something I have to think about.
Point here: getting control of this reffing thing is not easy for whomever is going to take charge of it in the big leagues. But I still think it is very feasible if the determination and organization is in place.
Do I know WHY reffing is an issue (Chris asks)? Because human beings have a pronounced tendency to cheat when given the opportunity. IMHO reffing is the MAIN issue facing the born-again pro circuit this-coming season, among other important ones. They have got to take the opportunity to start from a whole new sheet of music.
Steve
I think I've caught the same flu that Robbo, Baca and Buddha 3 seem to have: I'm bored of this endless pounding and rehashing of the same arguments over and over. D-day is on the horizon soon so I'll just wait and see (I hope from a close vantage point).
On another kind-of related subject I worked this past weekend as ultimate at a 14-team (from 4 nations) indoor tournament on the Finnish island of Åland off the coast of Sweden. Joy Division was there on day 2 and did exhibition games against the winners of the tournament, which was very exciting and taught me a lot.
So, I got to do some reality checking of some of the principles of ref training and supervision that I have been discussing in the context of threads like this one.
There were a few difficulties in getting a fully uniform standard since I had never worked with the reffing team before (Voodoo, from Finland, plus Egi from Cyclone and a newbie Swedish guy). There were a few teething problems in the first few games that gave an excuse for one team that was starting to lose to leave in protest. Otherwise it went very well and all the remaining teams thought the reffing was uniformly tough but superb. The overall officíating was univerally praised by every team but the one.
I did find that I could not take a newbie and get him up to speed during the tournament, and that resulted in a handful of bad calls. In this case, also, the person admitted he couldn't hack following through with a hard call even when it was clear. So that's something I have to think about.
Point here: getting control of this reffing thing is not easy for whomever is going to take charge of it in the big leagues. But I still think it is very feasible if the determination and organization is in place.
Do I know WHY reffing is an issue (Chris asks)? Because human beings have a pronounced tendency to cheat when given the opportunity. IMHO reffing is the MAIN issue facing the born-again pro circuit this-coming season, among other important ones. They have got to take the opportunity to start from a whole new sheet of music.
Steve
R
raehl
Guest
And there's a very good reason for the reffing.
There ARE NOT ENOUGH REFS TO HIRE.
There are two ways to get good enough at reffing to ref National events:
1) You are explicitly trained on how to ref.
2) You play enough national events to get that good. Note: This is not a guarantee, as there are plenty of pro players out there who are ****ty refs.
We have VERY few people who have been explicitly trained to ref. As for category two, when it gets to World Cup, the people who have the skills to be good refs, AND have the time to go to World Cup, are PLAYING. Nobody else is going to take time off of their real jobs to travel to florida and make LESS money than they make at their real jobs reffing paintball tournaments. Even those who arn't playing, having players ref might get you some good refs, but it ALSO gets you ****ty refs who just happen to be good players.
Very simply, you will never have better refs until you are willing to pay more to have refs trained and have refs paid a wage that makes it worth their time - $200/day at least, because your refs will have to take time off their real jobs until you're willing to pay them $30k+ a year so they don't have to have other jobs.
That's why you need to think before you complain. It's not an excuse, it's just not possible.
Refs in other pro sports are paid $60-$150k per year. When they're not on the field reffing real games, they're in workshops and training. It's a year round job. And those refs *STILL* screw up all the time. Expecting performance even close to their level when you're paying people $100/day to take time off their real jobs 5 events a year and not giving them any training the rest of the year is just ridiculous.
- Chris
There ARE NOT ENOUGH REFS TO HIRE.
There are two ways to get good enough at reffing to ref National events:
1) You are explicitly trained on how to ref.
2) You play enough national events to get that good. Note: This is not a guarantee, as there are plenty of pro players out there who are ****ty refs.
We have VERY few people who have been explicitly trained to ref. As for category two, when it gets to World Cup, the people who have the skills to be good refs, AND have the time to go to World Cup, are PLAYING. Nobody else is going to take time off of their real jobs to travel to florida and make LESS money than they make at their real jobs reffing paintball tournaments. Even those who arn't playing, having players ref might get you some good refs, but it ALSO gets you ****ty refs who just happen to be good players.
Very simply, you will never have better refs until you are willing to pay more to have refs trained and have refs paid a wage that makes it worth their time - $200/day at least, because your refs will have to take time off their real jobs until you're willing to pay them $30k+ a year so they don't have to have other jobs.
That's why you need to think before you complain. It's not an excuse, it's just not possible.
Refs in other pro sports are paid $60-$150k per year. When they're not on the field reffing real games, they're in workshops and training. It's a year round job. And those refs *STILL* screw up all the time. Expecting performance even close to their level when you're paying people $100/day to take time off their real jobs 5 events a year and not giving them any training the rest of the year is just ridiculous.
- Chris
Ah but...
Chris,
How do you explain that some PSP people ARE capable of putting up quality events for the same entry fee? You say it isn't possible for that kind of money, but enter Rennick and Chicago, and, as usual, you are proven wrong.
And I don't think anybody ever said that there shouldn't be a cap on the number of teams entered.
Chris,
How do you explain that some PSP people ARE capable of putting up quality events for the same entry fee? You say it isn't possible for that kind of money, but enter Rennick and Chicago, and, as usual, you are proven wrong.
And I don't think anybody ever said that there shouldn't be a cap on the number of teams entered.
Ah but...
OK so show me ONE single post/ad/flyer/press release where the PSP or ANY tournament promoter say that they are going to put on an event which will definately fall short in certain departments because they just can't afford to put on what the public expect or want, but if they paid $Xk extra it would all be OK.
I was going to insult you here because I just can't understand how you can be so blinkered and short sighted to very very basic business issues, but then I just looked at your posts and realised you are doing everything you can to destroy any shred of credibility or respect people may have had for you as NCPA pres.
And now you wouldn't complain if you knew in advance that what you're going to get. But if it's advertised as the greatest car on earth, the premier product, then sure you'd be pissed
OK so show me ONE single post/ad/flyer/press release where the PSP or ANY tournament promoter say that they are going to put on an event which will definately fall short in certain departments because they just can't afford to put on what the public expect or want, but if they paid $Xk extra it would all be OK.
I was going to insult you here because I just can't understand how you can be so blinkered and short sighted to very very basic business issues, but then I just looked at your posts and realised you are doing everything you can to destroy any shred of credibility or respect people may have had for you as NCPA pres.
R
raehl
Guest
Because...
Rennick runs it at his own field.
You ixnay a lot of expenses and hassle when you use an established paintball location, freeing up money and time for other things.
I agree Vegas sucked, but what made Atlantic City or LA worse than Chicago? (I was at Chicago, I was at neither AC or LA)
When we do college events, we won't get anywhere near a location that isn't a paintball field or that we don't own. It would double what we'd be paying in expenses.
- Chris
Rennick runs it at his own field.
You ixnay a lot of expenses and hassle when you use an established paintball location, freeing up money and time for other things.
I agree Vegas sucked, but what made Atlantic City or LA worse than Chicago? (I was at Chicago, I was at neither AC or LA)
When we do college events, we won't get anywhere near a location that isn't a paintball field or that we don't own. It would double what we'd be paying in expenses.
- Chris
Ah but...
Why are the promoters shortcomings my problem to fix...Im not getting paid for a service..Its up to them...Most companies ive dealt with always try and fix problems before they arise and not after the fact...
Not enough Refs on the fields is unreasonable...Chris,get as far away from paintball as you can..
Id be very willing to drop a few extra bucks on a quality event PSP or otherwise..But lets see some consistency first...
Heres an example of my problem:
Company A is having a convention and need space for 4000 people...Company A then proceeds to book a convention hall which holds 4500 people..
Company B is having a convention and needs space for 4000 people...Company B the proceeds to book a convention hall which holds 1500 and says well,the hell with it,we'll deal with it later when the time comes...
See my problem..Solutions have been spewed across these boards hundreds of times and still we get the same so why should i expect any different now...Look we'll never see eye to eye on this...I want what i was told i would get and no less..Cant handle that,no dough from me...
Dude,you are so out of touch with reality it makes my head hurt...Im asking for the things they told us they would give....And i have every right to complain about my Ford goin 85 when they told me it would go 95...Its not up to me to fix the problem,its the companies...
Why are the promoters shortcomings my problem to fix...Im not getting paid for a service..Its up to them...Most companies ive dealt with always try and fix problems before they arise and not after the fact...
Not enough Refs on the fields is unreasonable...Chris,get as far away from paintball as you can..
Id be very willing to drop a few extra bucks on a quality event PSP or otherwise..But lets see some consistency first...
Heres an example of my problem:
Company A is having a convention and need space for 4000 people...Company A then proceeds to book a convention hall which holds 4500 people..
Company B is having a convention and needs space for 4000 people...Company B the proceeds to book a convention hall which holds 1500 and says well,the hell with it,we'll deal with it later when the time comes...
See my problem..Solutions have been spewed across these boards hundreds of times and still we get the same so why should i expect any different now...Look we'll never see eye to eye on this...I want what i was told i would get and no less..Cant handle that,no dough from me...