Welcome To P8ntballer.com
The Home Of European Paintball
Sign Up & Join In

NPPL Super 7..The real deal!!

Wadidiz

EnHaNcE tHa TrAnCe
Jul 9, 2002
1,619
0
0
73
Stockholm, EU
Visit site
Originally posted by Tony Montana
I'm not making excuses. I'm just giving my perspective.
But Tony, that's all that seems to come from PSP. Excuses. I know that there were a lot of complications around some of last year's events but who is inevitably responsible?

IMHO the fake PSP press release should have been the real one. PSP needs to somehow, in a tactful way, say that they are GOING TO DELIVER what was shown could be delivered in Chicago. And somehow there needs to be some kind of checks and balances to guarantee that teams aren't going to show up to events and get inconsisitent and insufficient reffing....You know the drift.

And I agree with what you've said before: Millennium reffing isn't always the greatest. The top-level reffing that GZ and many others you could name just can't be topped. But no matter what it MUST BE SYSTEMIZED into consistency.

Drop the NPPL name bull**** and guarantee a minimum level of everything Millennium has made many expect (reality or myth) and you will solve this little bump in the road. Show a little humility and you will win big-time IMO.

Respectfully,

Steve
 

headrock6

Bloody Yanks!!
Jun 5, 2002
591
0
0
Strong Island
Visit site
Originally posted by Tony Montana
Buddha -

3 - I will side with you to an extent that after Vegas, the promoters put more hands on effort into making sure things went better, as did all employs of PSP. And again, based on the relationship the people have with PSP, the refs, runners, etc.

And why cant this hands on effort be put into every event and not just after a catastrophe???
 

Buddha 3

Hamfist McPunchalot
The cost difference...

Originally posted by raehl


The problem with web forums is most post jockeys never take the time to look beyond the surface of the problem.

- Chris
Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot I'm dealing with someone who's been there, and done that, and who singlehandedly runs the most succesful league in the world. :rolleyes:
Chris, I have been involved in organising a Millennium event. I have seen the balance sheets, I know what all the **** costs, I know the effort it takes. I am not a big shot paintballer, but after reading your posts I have to conclude that I DO know a whole lot more about organising big league paintball events, organising events in general (been there, done that), and the harsh world of business than you do. But since you seem too friggin' pigheaded to realise that when the whole world tells you you're wrong, you probably are wrong, I will now do like Robbo and just walk away from it all.
Thing is, if the tone of your posts would have been less egotrippingly "look at me know everything there is to know about everything", and more of "just my opinion", I would have loved to continue discussing things. But face it, kiddo, you don't know nothing yet, and once you finish school, the big bad world will bite you in the ass. I hope for your sake that you will get a chance to learn from it then.

Later.
 
R

raehl

Guest
Re: Re: Re: Ah but...

Originally posted by Beaker
The fact I've been involved in over $1.5million of business purchasing decisions on behalf of clients in the last year or so counts for nothing I guess
It doesn't count for much here. It's a whole different world from deciding how much you can charge a market, especially one you're not selling directly to, for a product or service you're providing. Your experience as a purchaser does not translate well to being a seller.


Part of my real job is helping decide how many hundreds of thousands of dollars we spend on software licenses every year. That's pretty much worthless in deciding how much our customers will pay for out product, or deciding which products we can design and manufacture for less than we can sell them for (or more appropriately, at a better gross margin than we could design, manufacture and sell something else for.)

Coming back to the issue at hand:

Last year, some people were not satisfied with some things at our national championships. The feedback was not "We want more." The feedback was "We'll pay more if you can do this other stuff as well." So this year we're going to do more and charge more, including (pay attention here Steve) paying over double the going rate for referees. It's not that I don't think reffing can be improved, I just think all of you who are expecting it to improve without a significant commitment of resources that is reflected in a significant increase in the cost to the player are idiots. I have yet to see anyone prove me wrong, including S7, who is going to be spending a lot more on referees, partly through charging more, partly through paying less for other things.

S7 made the decision to charge more and cut team size and numbers, PSP is charging the same and keeping 10-man and uncapped team numbers. Maye S7 is right, maybe PSP is right, maybe they're both right and will just sell to different people. Nobody is offering more for the same price, because they simply can't.


You have been getting exactly what you've been paying for, and if you want more, you are going to have to pay more. Bitch all you want, whine about how you deserve more all you want, but until you say 'I will pay more for what I want', you are NOT going to get it. Period.


Only problem you guys have is all the people who are satisfied with what they get for the money they're spending and promoters are going to continue to sell to that market because it's profitable to do so. Businesses success is measured by profit, which is fairly close to providing what people will pay for, which is a much better indication of what people want than what those people are saying.


- Chris
 
R

raehl

Guest
Re: The cost difference...

Originally posted by Buddha 3
Oh, I'm sorry. I forgot I'm dealing with someone who's been there, and done that, and who singlehandedly runs the most succesful league in the world. :rolleyes:
Define most successful. The NCPA has 3500 members, the largest paintball organization aside from SPPLAT. We grow at about 200% per year, despite appealing to teams who meet a very limitting set of eligibility requirements. Our events cost, per player, 1/3 or less than that of any other national circuit. I'm pretty sure we run more events annually than any other league, although they are admittedly much smaller. We have a much more involved player group, we have a much better level of sportsmanship, and we have a significant impact on promoting the sport outside of the industry. We even taught our players to pick up their own garbage so we don't have to pay someone else to do it.

Not saying I did this all singlehandedly by any means, but I'm no slouch either. I've been very involved in building something from not much when there were a lot of people who told us we could never be successful doing things the way we do them, including a lot of the "experts". So forgive me if a bunch of "paintball experts" tell me I'm wrong and I don't believe them - groups of "paintball experts" have a poor track record with me.


If you think I'm a little contemptious of a lot of player bitching - you're right, I am. I see a lot of the same problems you guys do, but I'm willing to do something about it, and I've tried to implement a lot of the changes players say they want, so I know first hand why those changes are not as easy as people think they are.

What have you guys done to cause change? Do you guys *REALLY* want change? Get off your asses and make it happen.

We don't have a national college paintball league because we sat around and complained that there wasn't one. We have one because the players got together and decided we were going to have one. We ran some events, and we organized our own national championships. They were small. The next year, we ran a few more events and upped our attendence a bit. The year after that, we ran a few more events and upped our attendence a lot. I rspect myself and I respect our players because we put in the work to get the change we want. Our guys understand that if we want something, we're going to have to work to get it. I don't have a whole lot of respect for people who complain that other people should make the change they want happen for them, and do it for free on top of that.

Player: "You need to spend your money to give me what I want, and you'll get nothing from me for it."
Promoter: "Uhm, wha?"


10 years ago a buncha captains who were pissed off at how things were going got together and started NPPL. You want change? Go talk to the other people who have their hands on the wallets of the player, who feel the same way you do, and are willing to put their time and money into making what you want to happen happen. Set up a real player's organization, incorporated, with bylaws, a Board of Directors, and elections - the organization NPPL wishes it was. Go run some events. Maybe the first year you'll only have 10 teams and **** prizes. But if you do it right, the next year you'll have 20 teams. And the next year you'll have 40. And then 80. And if you don't make the mistake NPPL did and pay someone else to do it and instead make sure you own the league that you build and can hire and fire the people working for the league at will, you'll have the control over your league to make what you want to happen happen.


We've done it. We control every aspect of our league and we can change whatever we want without having to negotiate with anyone else. We have done things right that nobody else in the history of paintball has managed to pull off, and yeah, I think that means something. We don't have to complain about what we get for our money because we control how every cent of it is spent.



Do you know why Jerry and Chuck et. al. get to make all the decisions why you guys can only bitch on web boards?

Because they do the work and you don't. Customers do not get to dictate what they get. They only get to choose what they'll buy.


My level of contempt for the shortcomings of our naitonal league(s) is exceeded only by my contempt for the complete lack of effort most players in that league seem willing to expend to insure change.


Even something so simple as getting 20 teams to form a corporation, paying all your entry fees to that corporation, and having that corporation withhold entry fees from the promoter if the promoter does not live up to contractual obligations would be a huge step in the right direction. You want to send a message to the promoters? Send them one big check for the registration of 20-40 teams from "Team Association X".



- Chris
 

Beaker

Hello again
Jul 9, 2001
4,979
4
113
Wherever I may roam
imlr.org
I wasn't trying to say I was a seller, I (now) sit in the middle between clients we have contracts with (and therefore sell to) and provide them products and service to a required spec within given SLA's to agreed minimum standards. To do that we sometimes have to purchase products and services using our skills and expertise and cut through the coporate bull$hit and see the truth of a products limitations but also it's strengths.

I have to recognise a good product, and question why some aren't so good. I look at things like bottom line, value for money and TCO. My job is on the line if I don't see through the excuses and explainations given to me.

When I look at the paintball industry it isn't that different from any other, including my own, and my position (of questioning what is possible and where is my money going) is no different either.
 

headrock6

Bloody Yanks!!
Jun 5, 2002
591
0
0
Strong Island
Visit site
Chris,do me a favor

send me your address so i can send you the package of Huggies to wrap around your face to stop all the **** that flows from your mouth....


You miss the point completely time and time again and dont even bother to look for it when people are shoving it in your face..****ing bravo 4 all your accomplishments,you want a cookie now??

I went bald at 18 yet i wish i had my hair so i could tear it out at this very moment..Instead ill go eat away my misery

-Fat,Bald,and tired of Raehl


Beak-Let it go...It just aint worth the headache:p
 
R

raehl

Guest
Chris,do me a favor

Originally posted by headrock6
send me your address so i can send you the package of Huggies to wrap around your face to stop all the **** that flows from your mouth....
And nothing makes me more aware of the error of my ways than a nice personal insult. I don't know how your brilliance escaped my notice before. Thank you for your insult which so aptly brought your profound intelligence to my attention.


- Chris
 

Buddha 3

Hamfist McPunchalot
Speaking of insults...

You'd better watch your language too, Chris. Using the word "idiots" when refering to those who don't agree with you is a definite faux pas. A case of what goes around, comes around I'd say.
You have been warned before that you need to consider the tone of your postings. As I have said, I don't mind discussions, and I don't mind people who disagree with me. I don't even mind being shown the errors of my ways. I do mind your tone, and I do mind you telling people off for doing the exact same thing you do.

Better keep the lip in check, or find another place to speak your mind. You have now been officially warned.

Yes folks, the modding IS getting tighter.
 

paintpimp

New Member
Nov 19, 2002
17
0
0
Visit site
Chris,

Just imagine if Daewoo was the only automobile manufacturer in the world. What if they charged you X amount of $$ for an automobile that didn't meet the reality or performance most consumers see in their current vehicles, and to top it off every customer gets a kick in the junk upon purchase. I'm sure under those conditions Daewoo would be the #1 automobile retailer in the world with increasing numbers of sales each year. Who knows they might even decrease vehicle reliability, features, or performance due to having to increase production. What am I trying to say? I have no clue. Maybe, players kept playing NPPL because it was the only game in town. What were the other options PanAm, the 2k2 version of WPF, ICC, NEPL, Sunshine Series, PACS, GTS, etc, etc, they're all regional.

PSP attempted (by attempt I mean they printed it, but didn't mean it) to cap the AC event. I believe they had quoted 96 (I may be off on that #). Result, the event went uncapped. Additional fields were not set up to handle the additional teams. Before the cap the required # of fields per the rulebook were not setup.

Why are teams allowed to register until the last minute? Because more teams will enter, thus more profit. When I mean profit Chris, I mean profit. Their expenses barely increase. It's like charging a bunch of students who live in your hometown for a ride home from campus during a semester break. You've got yourself a a little compact. You can fit 3 people and yourself (maybe leg room's a little cramped for the 2 in back). You jam a 3rd in the back seat, your cost is minimally increased because your MPG is slightly affected, but you've got another person paying the same as you decided to charge the other 3. You decide to throw a couple guys from the midget frat in the back too, and strap the kid bad breath that lives down the hall to the roof. You've got a packed car, but you're making a lot of extra cash. What about the kid in your dorm doing the same thing who owns the 7 passenger mini-van who's charging a few bucks more for the trip but capping his # of passengers at 6, so there's extra space for dirty laundry?


And while the topic is regarding the S7 and I haven't had a chance to comment yet....
I like capping the # of teams. There is a budget for each event, you know your max # of teams, you can plan accordingly and put on your best possible event for those teams. No worry about diminishing the event due to increasing #s, no rushing to get schedules done at the last minute because you're accepting $$ at the last minute.
I like the fact that schedules will be ready at least a couple days before the event. Personally I usually get to events 2 days in advance, and without travelling with a laptop I can't access somewhere like Warpig who usually posts PSP schedules until the day before the event, when teams are walking the fields.
Most of the extra cash per player is not going towards reffing. It's going towards venue. A site like the first event and the last event cost a lot more money than a cow pasture or a 4h fairground.
I like the open book idea, and the non-profit angle, I like prize lists published far in advance of events. You notice prize lists aren't even listed after PSP events anymore.

There's more but 4 pages of posts holds alot of stuff to read, and reply to I guess.

Chris