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Mill Series 2005

Takedown

Sacramento XSV
Mar 27, 2002
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Thank you!

Originally posted by Chuck

Sam I hope that the NPPL and PP do give a **** about the Euro Div1 teams. You have to remember that the majority of the local teams that enter major league events, do so to have a crack at the top teams. To test themselves once a year against the best. Now that the Pro league is locked and will be playing themselves, who are they going to look to? yep the Div1 teams because they are the only accesable ones.
Long gone are the days where the teams go to events just so they have a shot at playing Dynasty or Avalanche, teams go to these events, at least in the US to win. The teams are there to win and if they do beat their pro team it's just one step closer to making it to Sunday, not some huge ordeal. In fact these days with all of the non real pro teams at the NPPL events it became slightly unfair with the draw, some teams drew Organized Crime, while others drew Dynasty.

I don't think a lot of thought is being put into the Div 1 teams. For example instead of doing the right thing and adding an open division they are now forcing all the Div 1 teams to suddenly compete with %100 pro teams like the Russians, Aftershock, Ironmen, etc. As well all the Div 2 teams that were planning on moving up to Div 1 now have to either pick up pros to even have a chance in Div 1 or stay in Div 2. The NPPL is primarily concerned with making that Pro division elite and worth something. The teams in the lower divisions will still come, they will still have packed events, etc.
 

Buddha 3

Hamfist McPunchalot
Re: Thank you!

Originally posted by Takedown
....instead of doing the right thing and adding an open division....
That would be the wrong thing. Adding an open division would do the same thing that open Xball has done to the NXL; devaluate the pro league. That would be dumb from a business point of view, and also from a sporting point of view. Give it a season or two, and division one will separate the boys from the men, as will the pro division. Those teams that made the top division just because they attended many events where there were no big boys will find they get kicked out of the pro division, and the teams that rule division one will be moved up.

Order will be restored to the galaxy.
 

Takedown

Sacramento XSV
Mar 27, 2002
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Originally posted by Chuck
1. I have been told that the events (3or4) are full blown NPPL events.

2. If the teams are unable to afford it then they will not be able to compete so why bother with any Euro NPPLs at all?
Perhaps to play in some really good tournaments? Perhaps to travel to a new place and play paintball? Perhaps to prove to themselves they can compete at a high level?

3. Of course there is a bias, if you live in America you can attend all 5 of your qualifiying events over there and not have to travel to Europe ( unless you need the points) But that is optional. There are 3 or 4 Euro events planned but you can only use 2 of those scores therfore to make up your 5 scores you must travel to the U.S. How can that not be a Bias?
It's not bias, the Euro teams can travel to the US just as the US teams can travel to Europe. The NPPL is a US based league, the last 2 years have been US tournaments with Millennium affiliates. In the last 2 years you had to at least play in the US 3 times to have a chance at the top spot.

Last year I placed 1st at two millennium tournaments, if my team wanted to win the Millennium series we would need to travel over for more events. It was not in the books to go to more Euro events, so we did not win the series. We did not see this as a bias against US teams, we just saw it as a Euro based series with tournaments in Europe.

4. I am talking Div1 or lower, where do you think the average 17 yearold Euro player is going to find £600 x 3 for the U.S events plus training plus the money for the Euro events. Factor in extra days off work College x 6 (extra).
Yes you have to make sacrafices to play these events. Some people in the US can't even make it to all the NPPL events, is that bias against these people? Some people can't afford the entry fee is biased against them? No, it's just how it works, you have to find the money, time, etc to make it to these events and if you don't have those resources or you are not willing to give them up to play a tournament then that's the way it is.

5. If PP are not worried about having any one else in the world series why bother with the Euro events at all. True we do try to Improve, surely teams like us should be encouraged and not have obstacles constantly thrown before us.
Perhaps they are offering those events to give the European teams a taste of the NPPL, to entice them to come back to the US for the rest of the events? Or maybe they have the events in Europe so the US teams that want to play a European event or two can do so within their series. Or maybe the main reason is so they can make more money, this is a business in the end.

I don't see how you constantly have obstacles thrown at you. You want to have a run at a US based series without going to the US for all the events. I think it's a gift that the NPPL/PP even consider the Millennium Events from the last 2 years and the new Euro NPPL events next year as series points.

6. Example: cost of travelling to Amsterdam £40 inc ferry and Diesel.
H/ beach £350 flight+ £40 van hire. thats £350 per person more plus you have to take 2 extra days holiday or throw a "sickie" and lose 2 days money!
And we will have to do that a minimum of three times, if the qualification stays the same. Twice is possible 3 times I 'm not sure.
It may be possible for your team to do it twice, but maybe another team that wants to play in the series can only do it once, should they be allowed to use 4 events from Europe and 1 event from the US? At one point does it stop? A superstar team comes along, but with no funding, they want to win the series, should they allow 5 euro events to count? Should they give them double points for wins in their hometown? What's good for one team isn't always good for another. The NPPL is offering Euro teams, that have the resources, a chance at the series with 2 events in Europe.

I got an idea, play the first 2 US events (1 of which is HB, the best event of the year) and as many of the Euro events you can make. If your team is in the running for the series come time for Miami then as a team sit down and decide if it's worth the extra resources to go to Miami. If you decide it's worth it, then do everything in your power to make it. If you decide it's not worth it then there's no loss to you or your team. You may find that after HB it's not even worth it to travel to 1 US event (although that probably won't happen ;) or maybe your team does not perform well at HB, then you'd have to go to 3 more NPPLs to even have a chance.

This is exactly the way my team looked at the Millennium Series last year, as we progressed through the NPPL season we decided if it was worth it to go to Europe again based on how it would have an effect on our NPPL standing, as soon as we saw there was a very small chance we could win the series we decided to stop going to Europe because of the resources involved.
 

Takedown

Sacramento XSV
Mar 27, 2002
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Re: Re: Thank you!

Originally posted by Buddha 3
That would be the wrong thing. Adding an open division would do the same thing that open Xball has done to the NXL; devaluate the pro league. That would be dumb from a business point of view, and also from a sporting point of view. Give it a season or two, and division one will separate the boys from the men, as will the pro division. Those teams that made the top division just because they attended many events where there were no big boys will find they get kicked out of the pro division, and the teams that rule division one will be moved up.

Order will be restored to the galaxy.
It would of been right in the sense of thinking about the Div 1 teams which was the topic we were discussing. The NPPL is basically giving the Div 1 teams no choice then to either fill their roster with pros or dispose. These teams supported the NPPL the last 2 years and telling them you are ranked as Am, but we are going to allow these pro players from other leagues come and rule your division. Teams from Div 2 last year that moved up, may not have had they known what was going to happen at the end of this season. These teams were ok to play Div 1 this year, but once you add in the teams that didn't make the pro cut (including Shock, Ironmen, Russians, Entourage etc) or may not use their Pro spot they don't have a chance in hell of making it to the top 4 on Sunday.

Let's look at this season. Take all those NXL teams and Entourage and place them in Division I, do you think Evil would of won the series? It would of been a very large task for them. Now look at Texas Storm, Justice, Future Ball, Wicked, etc all very capable Div 1 teams this season, now throw in those Pro teams and the division just got insanely more difficult. You've essentially made all those pros into ams, despite the level of play they have been at for 5+ years. So again the NPPL is not thinking about these Div 1 teams that supported the series the last 2 years, they are only thinking about that pro bracket.

I think it's going to take longer then a season or two for this all to be put straight. At the very least the NPPL should move 2-4 teams up and down each season.
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
True enough, B3, but I don't think you can cobble over the problems it's gonna raise quite so cavalierly. The one thing Takedown's and Chuck's posts have in common is the attention to winning--regardless of division, and as presently conceived the NPPL's new order is gonna have a cascade effect down through the divisions. And that effect is gonna supress competition.
Historically, if you can talk about paintball historically, the traditional Pro division never had any real issues with teams competing that didn't belong. Sure, it happened occasionally but not routinely--not until teams thought there was an opening because of the weakened NPPL field and the opportunity posed by the restricted future pro division. In essence the NPPL was, partly, responding to a "problem" they created.

It's easy to say that tougher competition will force some players and teams up and down but as Chuck has pointed out this new, leaner meaner competition carries a price tag beyond the playing field and as long as the league relies on teams making the discretionary choice to be a part of the league they have to pay some attention to how their decisions effect the interest the bulk of the lower teams have in the league.

If they don't then the question that comes to mind is why not?
 

sykesg

Smakin your Bitch up
Aug 22, 2001
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Originally posted by Beaker


The only thing that teams help sell is product, and to do that you need to be winning. Tigers were the only UK team that got a podium this year, and that was at a Euro event, none of us have come close in the US.

Hi Beaker,

we did infact get 6 podium finishes this year 4 4th's and 2 3rd's - as you say all euro events as we only played 2 american events and didn't have full squads for either.
 

Beaker

Hello again
Jul 9, 2001
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Originally posted by sykesg
Hi Beaker,

we did infact get 6 podium finishes this year 4 4th's and 2 3rd's - as you say all euro events as we only played 2 american events and didn't have full squads for either.
Gareth - I've been called up on that elsewhere too :rolleyes: :)

Basically my point was simply that the UK pro teams (I wasn't reffering to any other division) don't have the same level of clout with their on paper results as our dear US counterparts. the comment was pretty much just directed at SJT and his saying that he expected Tiger, Shock and Nexus to have increased budgets for next season. I'm sure you will - to a point - but I don't think it will be because you are shifting product for the sponsors in the way that the big boys might, particularly with guns. Nexus have the PR machine down to a T and hence their level of support and exposure. But with Tigers and Shock not having such a strong brand association with something (bar paint and I already mentioned that) even though you are in the 18, there isn't so much of a reason for sponsors to come knocking.

As SJT said, being in is much better than not and the rest we can only wait and see but I wish all of you the best of luck.


EDIT: Oh - and I was only thinking of 7man Millenniums as we are talking NPPL, so your Toulouse and Madrid results.
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Follow the Money

Originally posted by Takedown
1--I don't see how you constantly have obstacles thrown at you. You want to have a run at a US based series without going to the US for all the events. I think it's a gift that the NPPL/PP even consider the Millennium Events from the last 2 years and the new Euro NPPL events next year as series points.

2--Let's look at this season. Take all those NXL teams and Entourage and place them in Division I, do you think Evil would of won the series? It would of been a very large task for them. Now look at Texas Storm, Justice, Future Ball, Wicked, etc all very capable Div 1 teams this season, now throw in those Pro teams and the division just got insanely more difficult. You've essentially made all those pros into ams, despite the level of play they have been at for 5+ years. So again the NPPL is not thinking about these Div 1 teams that supported the series the last 2 years, they are only thinking about that pro bracket.

I think it's going to take longer then a season or two for this all to be put straight. At the very least the NPPL should move 2-4 teams up and down each season.
1--just wanted to point out on behalf of the Euros that it's one thing to have another alternative level of competition to aspire to, and a situation where the existing competition is essentially replaced by an outside, less accessible league.

2--This notion of gaining some sort of competitive equilibrium after awhile is not simply a matter of letting the teams sort it out over a period of years. It's not going to happen. As separate entities acting within the framework of the NPPL (should it work out that way) there is a price to be paid to compete and a price to be paid for failing to compete successfully. All of these changes only make money more, not less, important in the process and no one has yet addressed the notion of parity (except in the fact Div 1 is likely to be so badly lop-sided as to make a complete mockery of the competition) but in any sporting league there needs be some sense that the results aren't forgone conclusions.
In relatively short order money will flow to some teams and not others and the disparity between the "Pro" will only get wider without some plan in place to protect the whole league. As it stands something close to a half of the 18 aren't competitive regardless of their admirable determination to do the best they can.
Instead of the 'The 18' beginning to solve any pre-existing "problems" it only creates a different set of them.