Inconsistencies in Toulouse....

[DK1]

Originally posted by EGi
The situation is intolerable at the moment. I had a DM4 on the DYE booth at toulouse for people to try getting it to bounce. I set it up so in my opinion it was perfecty legal (I could get one double shot after trying for about 10 minutes). I counted about 70 different people trying the gun and 6 people were able to make it bounce, two of them so that they could do it over and over again. Is this gun legal or not? How can I test a gun I setup for a customer to be legal for sure? Since I make the software I know there is no bull**** going on and I set it up so I can't make it bounce but still there is the possibility for a referee to pull the gun and suspend the player.

You guys might think that you cought 25 people intentionally trying to cheat at the tournament but my bet is that there were less than 5 actual cheater guns in Toulouse and you didn't catch a single one of them.

//EGi

[my-assumption]Ok, to me, that just sounds like the gun was set to the point where it *just* stopped bouncing for you. [/my-assumption]

The problem I see is people trying to push the envelope a little too hard. Guns shouldn't be set right on the edge of legality. They should be able to be set so that they are easily legal, and not anywhere close to being illegal. That may be a pipe dream though...

I still think that guns should have hard coded debounce filters... no adjustability. Since the players misused it, now they lose it. Semi-auto is semi-auto, so the people saying "my gun doesn't bounce at DB2" have no valid argument. If your gun shoots when you pull the trigger, it doesn't matter how high your filter is until it starts culling your own shots. If the debounce is set high enough to ensure no electronic bounce on any gun, then out goes the problem of people cheating using that. Since we have a board designer here... how high does the filter have to be before it starts dropping real shots? I've heard from people that it's not a problem to make hard coded debounce unnoticable, ie- high enough to stop all bounce but low enough that it doesn't interfere with actual shots.

DK1

 

[Takedown]

At least with Intimidators and most likely other markers that use a similiar micro switch there is not a one stop debounce setting that will catch all bounce. I have used markers that won't bounce on debounce 2 and others that bounce all the way up to debounce 10. It's unique to the microswitch, which way the micro switch is oriented and the way the trigger pull is setup. I think the main focus should be set on catching illegal boards. Boards that add shots when you reach a certain bps, boards that add velocity by changing the dwell as rof goes up, boards that shut off eyes with certain taps of the trigger, etc. The rest of the markers should be checked for bounce when you go on the field, if they do bounce the player should be given a chance to adjust the marker before they go on the field. If a marker is found to be bouncing after the game has started or ended I'm not so sure we should be suspending teams and players since there is not a set procedure to test, the series do not have people available to test guns before the events, and testing procedure varies from field to field. Obviously if the gun is going full auto the player should be suspended but when we get into mechanical and switch bounce we need to be careful that we do not get overzealous in penalizing players and teams.

 

[fred1]

DK1 said: The problem I see is people trying to push the envelope a little too hard. Guns shouldn't be set right on the edge of legality. They should be able to be set so that they are easily legal, and not anywhere close to being illegal.

Taking the example of the cocker since thats what I use, it's either you set it up pretty close to the edge for it to be competitive with the other markers on the market, or you make it 100% legal, NO BOUNCE and it just doesn''t perform.

My cocker is well tuned and its very hard to bounce. Still every now and then you get a marshall thats a cocker user, he'll depress the trigger without making the shot go off and start looking for the bounce...... and once out of 10 times he'll find it.... probably only going to get it to bounce 3 or 4 times and might not manage to bounce it again..... My point: one ref will say ok, you're fine, it's too hard to find the bouncing point and another will say, I got it to bounce once, its your marker I'm sure you know it better and you can bounce it so you can't go on the field.

We need a clear cut legislation, or I might as well sell my cocker. And I've been seeing that happen all season..... people selling their markers because they were traumatised during a Millennium event.....

 

[ascutt]

Originally posted by fred1
they were traumatised during a Millennium event.....

Oh come on, its not that bad!!!

How is it that Nexus are able to bring guns to the field that absolutely rip yet they have no bounce? It is purely down to the way you set your guns up. If you want to shoot your gun at the absolute limit then you run the risk of getting bounce - its that simple. I will add though, if you cant set up your E-Blade then take it to Nick Truter and the guys at Eclipse, we spoke at Toulouse and I explained what we were looking for and how we test and none of their guns failed on my field.

I am, and have been for some time, trying to push for a scrutineer for the Millennium Series. Someone every player has access to to test their guns and someone who can test guns that are found to be suspicious on field. Each Head Field judge could bag a suspicious gun and send it off to be examined by the scrutineer. Also, the scrutineer would be responsible for teaching the designated chrono judge on each field how to test guns before each game as a way of reducing the numbers of guns that get onto the field in the first place. I think this would still leave all the in-game points etc dealt with by the Head Field judge but suspensions would only be after the scrutineer has tested the gun in question and its his decision to suspend or not. Also, should it become available, the robot tester would be used by the scutineer.

 

[Red_Merkin]

You guys might think that you cought 25 people intentionally trying to cheat at the tournament but my bet is that there were less than 5 actual cheater guns in Toulouse and you didn't catch a single one of them

they caught Travis Laminski's gun in the semis after Infamous ran thru Worms in about 30 seconds. (that's why worms got the 100-0).

But here's the problem; (which Egi has identified, and i wish to hilight): The people getting caught with the bounce tests are generally not actually trying to cheat the rules, and the ones who are genuinely using cheater guns arn't getting caught!

The line has to be drawn somewhere, and as Egi says, how do you test for bounce when you're setting up a gun? If Egi (who's generally regarded as being a bit of an expert on bounce as he created the eye and board for the matrix for those who don't know) sets up a gun to what he feels is legal, and someone with a tallent for bouncing guns can make it bounce, then how do you define bounce?

We need a robot. We need a consistent mechanical device that can shoot every gun the same way, (motor on a cam?) and measure the output of paintballs. And we need this information put into a graph so we can compare the revolutions of the cam (trigger pulls) with the output of paint. There is too much variation and human error to apply these test fairly, having a judges physical test be the final say is inaccurate, and unjust.
Humans are Obsolete; Robots are the future!


What will this give us?
First it will take away the guess work, and luck of judges testing your gun. It will provide consistency which is desperatly needed in this situation.
Second it will define the relationship between pulling the trigger and a paintball comming out of the barrel, in a mathmatical way. Once you can describe the data you can compare it, and look for inconsistencys. If the inconsistencies fall outside the peramaters set by a pannel of experts, then the player is suspended, and the appropriate penalties are applied to the team.

Expressing these values in a graph will quickly display if the gun has switch bounce, shot stacking beyond a specified limit, bps and velocity ramping, or simply turbo/full auto modes (if the modes are engaged while the tests are being done).

When players are routinely spending £1000 for their gun, (or more) and yet the only means of testing the equiptment available is a £150 chronograph that hasn't been calibrated since the day it was made!

Personally i'm getting a bit fed up of the whole bouncing gun lottery thing. I want to know if my gun is legal or not! Let's just get a robot, measure the 'offending guns' and say once and for all if they're illegally set up or not!



Humans are obsolete, Robots are the Future!

 

[fred1]

No honestly Andy. I am just expressing what I have witnessed. I know at least 5 guys who have sold their cockers because they were sick and tired of trying to get rid of the bounce and failing miserably and more who just haven't managed to sell their cockers yet..... My team mates left their markers with the techs from WGP who couldn't get rid of the bounce either... (ok its an eblade and not a WGP blade but still...)

I personally have been lucky not to have this problem and you are the only ref that found bounce on my marker this tournament but I know it's there lurking in the shadows..... waiting for that last finals game to pounce..... and give me heart failure....

Red Merkin said: Personally i'm getting a bit fed up of the whole bouncing gun lottery thing. I want to know if my gun is legal or not! Let's just get a robot, measure the 'offending guns' and say once and for all if they're illegally set up or not!

YES!

 

[Mark Toye-Nexus]

I totally agree with Colin

Its time to stop the lottery and get real

There were judges testing for bounce last weekend that didnt even know there was a set procedure for chrissakes!!!

We were bounce free until this guy found a sweet spot (without holding the gun correctly I might add) and refused to let it on the field (this is 8 games into the tournament and the 8th time it was tested btw). I asked him to test according to the set procedure - he said he had no idea what I was talking about and if I'd like to bring it to him he'd look at it!!!!!!!!!!

We sat at the captains meeting and were assured that the guns would only fail if the bounce gave an advantage to the player.

Shame there were one or two gun judges that werent passed the same information!!!

Mark

 

[Troggy]

Likewise Mark - we were bounce free the entire tournament except for one field. Scutty et al had no problems with any of our markers (not through the lack of trying on some fields).

Just to join the portest - wether it is a robot or not, players need a 110% way of ensuring their markers are bounce free.

Colin, my only issue with the whole robot is it would be too easy to bypass by after chrono changes (maybe?). I am not saying this is not the way forward but a way of randomising its use would be required I think.

 

[TJ Lambini]

I agree

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff



I would rather allow 10 illegal guns on the field, than have ONE legal one banned.... because at the moment players have NO CHANCE at ensuring they are within the rules.


Nick

 

[Red_Merkin]

you know you need it.