Inconsistencies in Toulouse....

[Wadidiz]

How cheaters are getting around the bounce

Originally posted by STRANGE IMPULSE #!
Almost everyone knows one of the best ways to eliminate some of their cheating bounce in the gun and that is to shut the eye of before chronoing or testing.The marker shoots faster and bounces more when the eye is on and most cheaters know thats one way to help from getting caught.It also eliminates the debounce settings too

Maybe you'll tell me that you saw someone get by with having their marker tested without their anti-chop system on. In such case the testers ignored what we told them. We'll hit harder on that next time if need be.

Steve

 

[DK1]

Camsmith

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Third, I still maintain that a lot of the guns that are labelled as "cheats", are really not.

Main rule is one shot per trigger pull.... and the whole reason for that rule is that full auto guns are illegal in most European countries.

BUT..... whether that trigger pull comes about by moving your finger onto the trigger, or moving the trigger onto your finger (or standing on your head for that matter), SHOULD be inconsequential...... but for a lot of judges it is not, and they fail to realise that even if holding their finger completely still, the recoil of the gun brings about the "trigger pull"..... which by definition is NOT full auto.

Basically, if you hold a gun kind of "loose" and are able to find the exact point of switch activation and then hold your finger there, EVERY gun "bounces"..... but it is not an illegal bounce - because the switch is physically activated for every shot fired !

Unfortunately, this means that a lot of players have their guns banned, when in effect they are not illegal..... the judges (some of them) just lack the knowledge and understanding of what is actually happening physically, to make the right call.

Nick

But that IS bounce. It's no different than tippman or AGD RT markers. They fire on their own recoil (or actually your finger in a lot of cases, much closer to a s/a situation than most electronic guns). If we limit the testing on eletronic guns to "switch-bounce" only, then X-valve mags with the input cranked to 950psi and .735" on/off pins should be cleared to play also... because they have zero electronic bounce.

DK1

 

[ascutt]

Nick

The problem is that the trigger is not being 'manually' activated is it? It is being automatically ativated by the marker (mechanical baounce) or the switch (electro bounce) and thats where your arguement falls down. To be manually activated it would require a manual depression of the switch not just the fact that your finger happens to be in the way when the gun re-cocks. I can get my e-balde to bounce with a biro and thats not quite what I would can manual!

 

[Matski]

"and we should instead look for much easier ways to introduce limits on fire rates and how easy high ROFs are to obtain."

Havn't we already discovered that limits on fire rates are impossible to achieve given how technical board cheating has become? It's very much like computer hackers, you improve in terms of rules and protection, they will find a way around/through the new problem. Manike has said on here before that even he could probably check a gun and be unable to find cheat modes, despite them being there.

 

[MrDan]

"The definition of a trigger is the movable lever that comes in contact with the finger. A trigger pull requires an exertion of force by the finger on the trigger and a release of force by the finger on the trigger during every firing cycle"

"Now, to me (and I may be wrong) - whether the force exerted comes about by moving the finger or the gun, should be of no consequence.... as long as force is exerted onto the trigger by the finger !"

Nick, if the gun is moving (ie the vibration during firing) the force is exerted by the trigger on to the finger (not v.v.), therefore your finger is stationary, so you are not pulling and releasing the trigger to fire the marker, merely moving your finger when you want to stop the gun firing.
If you dont pull and release your finger for each shot then the gun is legally classed as full auto, Well at least in the UK it would be.

 

[camsmith]

I think you need to be introduced to a guy called Newton.

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Personally, I'm on Nick's side on this issue (if that means anything). I believe mechanical bounce to be legal.

The main problem is that I can fire my marker faster than the rate of fire provided by mechanical bounce, so I get no advantage from using it.

Regardless of this, I think we're missing the point of the post. Teams must have a clear understanding of the test procedure and the rules involved so that they are not "surprised" by different standards of testing applied.

 

[fred1]

yes! back to subject.

When are we going to have a clear definition of what is tolerated and not, so that we can prepare ourselves and defend ourselves?

And hopefully this definition won't be strict to the point where we all have to go out and by mechanical markers again.....

 

[Christian-Malera]

Originally posted by camsmith
I think you need to be introduced to a guy called Newton.

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Personally, I'm on Nick's side on this issue (if that means anything). I believe mechanical bounce to be legal.

The main problem is that I can fire my marker faster than the rate of fire provided by mechanical bounce, so I get no advantage from using it.

Regardless of this, I think we're missing the point of the post. Teams must have a clear understanding of the test procedure and the rules involved so that they are not "surprised" by different standards of testing applied.

Couldn't have said it better myself...........

 

[EGi]

The situation is intolerable at the moment. I had a DM4 on the DYE booth at toulouse for people to try getting it to bounce. I set it up so in my opinion it was perfecty legal (I could get one double shot after trying for about 10 minutes). I counted about 70 different people trying the gun and 6 people were able to make it bounce, two of them so that they could do it over and over again. Is this gun legal or not? How can I test a gun I setup for a customer to be legal for sure? Since I make the software I know there is no bull**** going on and I set it up so I can't make it bounce but still there is the possibility for a referee to pull the gun and suspend the player.

You guys might think that you cought 25 people intentionally trying to cheat at the tournament but my bet is that there were less than 5 actual cheater guns in Toulouse and you didn't catch a single one of them.

//EGi

 

[manike]

Scutty

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
2) Whether the player pulls the trigger or holds his finger still and moves the gun onto his finger is inconsequential.

Obviously you subscribe to the first view, and I to the second.

This is wrong anyway because with mechanical bounce as you call it, he isn't moving the gun onto his finger. The gun is moving itself onto his finger. Via recoil or reciprocating mass and inertia.