Problem with full-auto guns is, for the UK at least, they would then become illegal. Not something we want to happen
Inconsistencies in Toulouse....
- Thread starter fred1
- Start date
I agree that a robot at the moment is simply a pipe dream (although I have no idea about the one used at Huntingdon Beach). But that doesn't mean that it can't be done. I would also suggest that just looking at what is feasable at this point is not what a discussion forum is about.
I also believe that the advances in marker technology has outpaced the development of the rules to the point where the current rules are not enforceable. This needs to change.
At the start of this thread, it was mentioned that people did not know what to expect when testing their markers. I am simply suggesting possible solutions to this.
However, the problem with the ability to get a second opinion is simply that it is an opinion. This is no more or less subjective than just having one person testing.
Anyway, currently I believe your team captain has the option to get the tournament ultimate involved if he feels the ref is not applying the rules as intended. This should not change.
I also believe that the advances in marker technology has outpaced the development of the rules to the point where the current rules are not enforceable. This needs to change.
At the start of this thread, it was mentioned that people did not know what to expect when testing their markers. I am simply suggesting possible solutions to this.
However, the problem with the ability to get a second opinion is simply that it is an opinion. This is no more or less subjective than just having one person testing.
Anyway, currently I believe your team captain has the option to get the tournament ultimate involved if he feels the ref is not applying the rules as intended. This should not change.
The bloomin' guns ARE illegal now, it's just that the authorities don't know it yet. Think if a uniformed officer who was knowledgable on the firearm laws stood by the test-shooting range at Campaign. Some player would be in the slammer for a while (maybe up to five years). That person would not be on the scheduled flight home.Originally posted by lothlorien7646
Problem with full-auto guns is, for the UK at least, they would then become illegal. Not something we want to happen
That's one reason we've got to get control of this.
Steve
Hello all.......
Well I knew I wouldn't be able to stay out of this thread for long and thought now might be a good time. It has been a really really tough weekend and one that I hope not to have to go through again. I do not go to these events looking forward to suspending players or gleefully searching out bounce. I would much rather spend my time helping players to have a fair and exciting time playing a sport we all love. However, the Millennium pays me to enforce the rules they have to ensure that the two teams that face each other at the start of the game are playing fairly. I work very closely with all the Pro Judges to try to ensure that the way we are employing and enforcing the rules is consistant across all the fields - something that is made a little harder by judging teams that never come to the judges meeting (points will be docked!!!) . Obvioulsy it will take time but I think this season is already way better that last year so maybe we are making some headway.
Now onto the hot topic of the weekend - bounce! The plan was simple, make one judge on each field totally responsible for all the tests and then get them to test exactly as it says in the rules - how hard can that be? Well very it would seem as I had reports of all types of different intepretations of the bounce test being used and this is, I beleive, the root of the problem for most players. The bounce test guidelines are simply not clear enough for player to be able to test their own markers to a level that will see them clear of the designated test judge. Something needs to change here, a re-wording or re-think because I do not want to go to the next Millennium event and have to suspend more players for bounce (unless they deserve it like some of the full auto guns I did pull this weekend!). Of course the other side of the problem is this, no 2 people will test your gun the same, in fact its worse, the same person may miss bounce in one test and then find it in another!! Why I hear you scream!!? Well because we are not bloody machines, thats why! If I had a euro for everytime a player said to me 'you pased it last time' or 'but I haven't changed anything and now you pass it? then I could've almost afforded a beer at the players party (yes, that much money!!)
Yes, the test is not infallible, yes the judges are not infallible but we did catch many many full-auto guns, not just bouncing a shot or two but genuinely usable in-game full auto guns and these are the ones we banned (along with a small collection of ramping/shot storing guns as well).
I know people are now looking at the wording of the bounce test in an attempt to make it more understandable to all players so that they can test their own guns and not fall foul of a rule that we must enforce for safety and legal reasons.
Fianlly a quick word for all those folkes who tried the 'well I can never get my gun to bounce' line. I have just picked your gun up and in less that 30 seconds I have got it to bounce. You own you gun and use it week in week out, who do you think knows you trigger better?
Peace guys and come to Malaga Beach - I guarantee that I will not be doing the bounce tests there!
Well I knew I wouldn't be able to stay out of this thread for long and thought now might be a good time. It has been a really really tough weekend and one that I hope not to have to go through again. I do not go to these events looking forward to suspending players or gleefully searching out bounce. I would much rather spend my time helping players to have a fair and exciting time playing a sport we all love. However, the Millennium pays me to enforce the rules they have to ensure that the two teams that face each other at the start of the game are playing fairly. I work very closely with all the Pro Judges to try to ensure that the way we are employing and enforcing the rules is consistant across all the fields - something that is made a little harder by judging teams that never come to the judges meeting (points will be docked!!!) . Obvioulsy it will take time but I think this season is already way better that last year so maybe we are making some headway.
Now onto the hot topic of the weekend - bounce! The plan was simple, make one judge on each field totally responsible for all the tests and then get them to test exactly as it says in the rules - how hard can that be? Well very it would seem as I had reports of all types of different intepretations of the bounce test being used and this is, I beleive, the root of the problem for most players. The bounce test guidelines are simply not clear enough for player to be able to test their own markers to a level that will see them clear of the designated test judge. Something needs to change here, a re-wording or re-think because I do not want to go to the next Millennium event and have to suspend more players for bounce (unless they deserve it like some of the full auto guns I did pull this weekend!). Of course the other side of the problem is this, no 2 people will test your gun the same, in fact its worse, the same person may miss bounce in one test and then find it in another!! Why I hear you scream!!? Well because we are not bloody machines, thats why! If I had a euro for everytime a player said to me 'you pased it last time' or 'but I haven't changed anything and now you pass it? then I could've almost afforded a beer at the players party (yes, that much money!!)
Yes, the test is not infallible, yes the judges are not infallible but we did catch many many full-auto guns, not just bouncing a shot or two but genuinely usable in-game full auto guns and these are the ones we banned (along with a small collection of ramping/shot storing guns as well).
I know people are now looking at the wording of the bounce test in an attempt to make it more understandable to all players so that they can test their own guns and not fall foul of a rule that we must enforce for safety and legal reasons.
Fianlly a quick word for all those folkes who tried the 'well I can never get my gun to bounce' line. I have just picked your gun up and in less that 30 seconds I have got it to bounce. You own you gun and use it week in week out, who do you think knows you trigger better?
Peace guys and come to Malaga Beach - I guarantee that I will not be doing the bounce tests there!
Cheap ideas....
If money, time, and lack of technical know-how are the big problems, here are a few ideas to help people get their guns straight before the first games on day 1:
1. Air and chrono station are open on Thursday afternoon. And instead of having 2 chronos for 1000+ ballers, have 5-10, and set up a big ass chrono station.
2. The 5 or 6 head marshalls are there to test guns for bounce. They're being paid to be there anyway, so they could spend a few hours to help the people who need it / want it by simply saying "it's good" or "fix it." This would in no way imply that it won't be tested later and banned if it does bounce, but just gives a player an idea if he needs to fix it or not. (That said though, the ability of the head marshals to bounce guns was not the same on every field, so that's a whole other problem in itself.)
3. Get a tech from each major gun manufacturer who are sponsoring the Millennium Series to give a tech lecture (not a class) on what you need to do to eliminate bounce. It doesn't have to be long, maybe 30-60 minutes, and they could be spread out over the course of the day and on the schedule when it's published a few days prior to the event. Or recruit a reputable tech for a particular marker type to give it, and give him $50. It probably wouldn't be that difficult to have a 60 minute session for Angels, Timmy's, Cockers, Matrix, Impulses, Shockers between 9am and 6 pm. Obviously they can't all be represented, but get as many as possible. All the friggin' money we pay for these guns, they could take at least an hour out of their day to have one qualified tech help people from being banned for playing with a gun that comes out of the box illegal.
4. Manufacturers could even run tech courses for anyone who wants to pay a few bucks and learn how to service their reg so they don't have pressure spikes, or find out the difference between debounce and mbounce. It amazes me that there isn't an official tech booth like WDP or Planet offers from other manufacturers. When you think about how many people are now playing with Timmy's for example, the fact that National can't get a couple of certified techs in a booth is ridiculous. But then again, they can't even update the manual that comes with the Alias or Empire Timmy's either.
None of these are expensive solutions, but they do require a little effort on the part of the organizers and sponsors. And as paying customers to the manufacturers, I don't think that it's too much to ask that we get a little service at a supposed major tournament. It's not really fair to criticize a player for not knowing how to tech his marker when the friggin thing didn't even come with a manual that applies to that particular gun. And some people don't have access to a tech for their gun, so as part of the $1300 plus dollars you paid for the friggin' thing, it shouldn't be too much to ask.***
***I know, I know...asking for anything is asking for too much, but unfortunately I came down with a bad case of common sense when I was a kid and they haven't found a cure yet...
If money, time, and lack of technical know-how are the big problems, here are a few ideas to help people get their guns straight before the first games on day 1:
1. Air and chrono station are open on Thursday afternoon. And instead of having 2 chronos for 1000+ ballers, have 5-10, and set up a big ass chrono station.
2. The 5 or 6 head marshalls are there to test guns for bounce. They're being paid to be there anyway, so they could spend a few hours to help the people who need it / want it by simply saying "it's good" or "fix it." This would in no way imply that it won't be tested later and banned if it does bounce, but just gives a player an idea if he needs to fix it or not. (That said though, the ability of the head marshals to bounce guns was not the same on every field, so that's a whole other problem in itself.)
3. Get a tech from each major gun manufacturer who are sponsoring the Millennium Series to give a tech lecture (not a class) on what you need to do to eliminate bounce. It doesn't have to be long, maybe 30-60 minutes, and they could be spread out over the course of the day and on the schedule when it's published a few days prior to the event. Or recruit a reputable tech for a particular marker type to give it, and give him $50. It probably wouldn't be that difficult to have a 60 minute session for Angels, Timmy's, Cockers, Matrix, Impulses, Shockers between 9am and 6 pm. Obviously they can't all be represented, but get as many as possible. All the friggin' money we pay for these guns, they could take at least an hour out of their day to have one qualified tech help people from being banned for playing with a gun that comes out of the box illegal.
4. Manufacturers could even run tech courses for anyone who wants to pay a few bucks and learn how to service their reg so they don't have pressure spikes, or find out the difference between debounce and mbounce. It amazes me that there isn't an official tech booth like WDP or Planet offers from other manufacturers. When you think about how many people are now playing with Timmy's for example, the fact that National can't get a couple of certified techs in a booth is ridiculous. But then again, they can't even update the manual that comes with the Alias or Empire Timmy's either.
None of these are expensive solutions, but they do require a little effort on the part of the organizers and sponsors. And as paying customers to the manufacturers, I don't think that it's too much to ask that we get a little service at a supposed major tournament. It's not really fair to criticize a player for not knowing how to tech his marker when the friggin thing didn't even come with a manual that applies to that particular gun. And some people don't have access to a tech for their gun, so as part of the $1300 plus dollars you paid for the friggin' thing, it shouldn't be too much to ask.***
***I know, I know...asking for anything is asking for too much, but unfortunately I came down with a bad case of common sense when I was a kid and they haven't found a cure yet...
CJ
All sound ideas (although despite having to be on site on the Thursday for 3 hrs of meetings the Pro Judges are not paid for that day - something to discuss later!!). I have always made an effort to be available to test players guns when the ask me, in fact earlier post in this thread will show you that. I think we will be looking at this issue a lot more before Madrid and Norway to try and come up with a way to get the judges test the same and a way of helping players set their guns as well.
All sound ideas (although despite having to be on site on the Thursday for 3 hrs of meetings the Pro Judges are not paid for that day - something to discuss later!!). I have always made an effort to be available to test players guns when the ask me, in fact earlier post in this thread will show you that. I think we will be looking at this issue a lot more before Madrid and Norway to try and come up with a way to get the judges test the same and a way of helping players set their guns as well.
Before we ask the techs to ensure our markers are tourney legal they need to be told themselves what the rules are.
Even the techs at the angel tent could not make our brand new Joy Fly tourney legal!
On a different note the guns down rule after ten seconds was a brilliant idea.
Plus the marshalls were really on the ball about FA modes.
We played against one team who had a FA marker, we could tell he was not in control of the marker as he shot the deadbox about 20 times by accindent, I dont want to be hit 20 times by accident!!!
Even the techs at the angel tent could not make our brand new Joy Fly tourney legal!
On a different note the guns down rule after ten seconds was a brilliant idea.
Plus the marshalls were really on the ball about FA modes.
We played against one team who had a FA marker, we could tell he was not in control of the marker as he shot the deadbox about 20 times by accindent, I dont want to be hit 20 times by accident!!!
I think that it's great that you're willing to give your time to help players out. But if it were possible to do this on Thursday before someone has unwittingly gone out and stepped their crank and put their team down a player, it would surely be a lot more pleasant weekend for the honest player who really CAN'T make their gun bounce.
As for any hope of syncrhonizing the efforts of the marshalls, I won't hold my breath waiting for that to happen. Before semi-finals this weekend, your field was the only one to check our ID cards and clothing, so I'll simply say good luck on that one. It would be great to see, but it would be an achievement on par with putting a man on the moon, or getting Piper to go on a diet.
How cheaters are getting around the bounce
Almost everyone knows one of the best ways to eliminate some of their cheating bounce in the gun and that is to shut the eye of before chronoing or testing.The marker shoots faster and bounces more when the eye is on and most cheaters know thats one way to help from getting caught.It also eliminates the debounce settings too
Almost everyone knows one of the best ways to eliminate some of their cheating bounce in the gun and that is to shut the eye of before chronoing or testing.The marker shoots faster and bounces more when the eye is on and most cheaters know thats one way to help from getting caught.It also eliminates the debounce settings too
More proof of inconsistence?
One of the chrony judges managed to get may Nexus bounce, I asked to another judge to test my gun and he didn’t make it bounce.
I asked the second judge: So, it’s an illegal gun or not? He said no, it does not bounce
Then the first judge said: That is YOUR gun if I make it bounce it means that you can also make it bounce, you cannot play with it.
One of the chrony judges managed to get may Nexus bounce, I asked to another judge to test my gun and he didn’t make it bounce.
I asked the second judge: So, it’s an illegal gun or not? He said no, it does not bounce
Then the first judge said: That is YOUR gun if I make it bounce it means that you can also make it bounce, you cannot play with it.