Inconsistencies in Toulouse....
- Thread starter fred1
- Start date
I am really not familiar with the legal issues surrounding markers, trigger pulls and rates of fire. Seriously though this issue definately seems to be an issue that needs addressing now. A 'Robot' seems like and interesting concept but just like most professional sports this may create the 'Third eye' effect. Like the video review, play reviews and third umpire in football. I can see the adavntages but i feel that it takes some of the purity of the sport away. the impure deliberate cheaters can also be eliminated with the use of a consistent 'Robot.' Cheaters and i mean purposeful cheaters, board fixers etc will be caught out and should be treated accordingly. how do you distinguish between a deliberate cheater and a player whom is unfortunate enough to get a marshall whom can bounce a trigger very well? Tough call...
As pressures for results increase and sponsorship deals become sparce because of increased competition will the deliberate board fixing cheating be encouraged? I can also see as markers get faster and easier to run/fire despite the technology and maintenance getting more complicated this problem is only going to worsen.
Leagl requirements and maintaining fairness in the sport moving forward is a must. But how can we achieve this? I am concerned that a well known tech and marker maker made a marker legal in his opinion and yet some individuals could make it bounce.
Right now i cannot think of a consistent solution. I am also saddened that some individuals find it necessary to deliberately cheat in order to gain some mechanical advantage over the opposition. When you get tagged out by an opposition player whom has not cheated then you just look even crapper...
thinking.
As pressures for results increase and sponsorship deals become sparce because of increased competition will the deliberate board fixing cheating be encouraged? I can also see as markers get faster and easier to run/fire despite the technology and maintenance getting more complicated this problem is only going to worsen.
Leagl requirements and maintaining fairness in the sport moving forward is a must. But how can we achieve this? I am concerned that a well known tech and marker maker made a marker legal in his opinion and yet some individuals could make it bounce.
Right now i cannot think of a consistent solution. I am also saddened that some individuals find it necessary to deliberately cheat in order to gain some mechanical advantage over the opposition. When you get tagged out by an opposition player whom has not cheated then you just look even crapper...
thinking.
I wish the majority of your countrymen felt the same way.
The kids around here even cheat with their guns at practice and rec ball.
Next time I play some of the local kids I'm bringing an X-ball gun.
I agree.
But so far I think your idea of a solution if moving towards the NXL 'fix' rolleyes. And that I don't agree with.
A possible solution that might be pleasing to everyone except the players whos marker is found to have an illegal trigger is below.
1. I do not know the answer to consistently determine and weed out deliberate cheaters with deliberately fixed illegal boards and trigger pulls/bounces.
2. A solution. A player is found to have an illegal trigger bounce by whatever means decided. This player is then given a pump marker to play in the game with. this will prevent players and teams encouraging deliberate cheating. Playing with a pump in these days pro series is definately going to be a disadvantage for you and your team. This should act as a deterant in some ways... Also the player will still pay and will think twice about having such an edgy trigger next time. I would rather play with a high tech marker that has a slighty longer - still crazily fast - trigger pull with little bounce than a pump anyday.
3. these pumps will also be very legal. As the deternat effect presses on. Players will make their markers with less bounce and a little bit more trigger pull in order to not run the risk of playing with a pump. Pro teams will not border on fine line illegal/legal trigger bounces for fear that the team will have a few players using pumps. If bounces and trigger pulls are increased slightly to avoid the above pump threat then the markers will all become legal again because the almost nearly 'full auto' status will be that much more unattainable.
4. Pumps will affect the games considerably so this may be an extreme measure but i think if applied it may be very effective.
5. Now all we need is to decide about consistent deliberate cheaters detection within paintball and then we will all golden as will the sport.
Manike - I am British just moved to Denver 2 years ago. I think i met you once.
Still thinking.
1. I do not know the answer to consistently determine and weed out deliberate cheaters with deliberately fixed illegal boards and trigger pulls/bounces.
2. A solution. A player is found to have an illegal trigger bounce by whatever means decided. This player is then given a pump marker to play in the game with. this will prevent players and teams encouraging deliberate cheating. Playing with a pump in these days pro series is definately going to be a disadvantage for you and your team. This should act as a deterant in some ways... Also the player will still pay and will think twice about having such an edgy trigger next time. I would rather play with a high tech marker that has a slighty longer - still crazily fast - trigger pull with little bounce than a pump anyday.
3. these pumps will also be very legal. As the deternat effect presses on. Players will make their markers with less bounce and a little bit more trigger pull in order to not run the risk of playing with a pump. Pro teams will not border on fine line illegal/legal trigger bounces for fear that the team will have a few players using pumps. If bounces and trigger pulls are increased slightly to avoid the above pump threat then the markers will all become legal again because the almost nearly 'full auto' status will be that much more unattainable.
4. Pumps will affect the games considerably so this may be an extreme measure but i think if applied it may be very effective.
5. Now all we need is to decide about consistent deliberate cheaters detection within paintball and then we will all golden as will the sport.
Manike - I am British just moved to Denver 2 years ago. I think i met you once.
Still thinking.
WTB
What is the standard test procedure?
It's what’s described on page 8 of the Millennium Rules (
http://www.millennium-series.com/rules/MS-rulesV.4.0.pdf )
If that is the Standard test procedure then why some judges instead of 'Slowly fully depress the trigger in one continuous motion' start looking for a bounce point somewhere in the middle of the trigger course?
And back to what Nick said before; I was one of those guys who have his gun deemed illegal on NPS field Sunday at 13:30 and deemed legal on NPS field Sunday 14:15 by the same judge. And believe me, I din't change any setting between those 2 games because that gun were tested 12 times by different judges on different fields and I was able to play with that gun all over the weekend.
What is the standard test procedure?
It's what’s described on page 8 of the Millennium Rules (
http://www.millennium-series.com/rules/MS-rulesV.4.0.pdf )
If that is the Standard test procedure then why some judges instead of 'Slowly fully depress the trigger in one continuous motion' start looking for a bounce point somewhere in the middle of the trigger course?
And back to what Nick said before; I was one of those guys who have his gun deemed illegal on NPS field Sunday at 13:30 and deemed legal on NPS field Sunday 14:15 by the same judge. And believe me, I din't change any setting between those 2 games because that gun were tested 12 times by different judges on different fields and I was able to play with that gun all over the weekend.
Steve, I have no problem in setting the guns to the safe side if you just tell me the point where the settings change from the gray area to the safe side? Do I need to run to each field and have each marshall test it or should I fly in a couple russian girls who are good violin players, they for sure can make the triggers bounce...
I don't have any good solutions for you though, it's easy to tell that things are not working but finding solutions is much harder. The robot is problematic because it takes a long time to check one gun so only a small percentage of the guns on site can be tested. It won't also catch designed cheats in the software and there is couple other ways around it also. And the final problem is that players would need a change to test their guns on the robot before hand (like chrono) to be able to actually know that their guns are within limits.
I'd suggest you get a big machining wise with thick rubber fixtures on each field. Mount the gun there tight and shoot it. I bet you can't get almost any gun to bounce
//EGi
I don't have any good solutions for you though, it's easy to tell that things are not working but finding solutions is much harder. The robot is problematic because it takes a long time to check one gun so only a small percentage of the guns on site can be tested. It won't also catch designed cheats in the software and there is couple other ways around it also. And the final problem is that players would need a change to test their guns on the robot before hand (like chrono) to be able to actually know that their guns are within limits.
I'd suggest you get a big machining wise with thick rubber fixtures on each field. Mount the gun there tight and shoot it. I bet you can't get almost any gun to bounce
//EGi
Human Error
I would say that pulling a trigger with your finger isn't a scientific way of testing for triggerbounce.
It's a way of testing... But it's not scientific.
T.
I would say that pulling a trigger with your finger isn't a scientific way of testing for triggerbounce.
It's a way of testing... But it's not scientific.
T.
I'm all for playing PUMP! I just bought one of possibly the last J2 pump guns ever... I love pump.
Cool, it's not certain, but I really hoping (90% sure) to be at the Denver NPPL.
Steve: I think Nick, Claudio and Egi have made some interesting remarks. Care to comment on them?
Guys could we stay on subject
The main points here are:
1) When are we going to have a clear rule defining trigger bounce?
2) When is the standard gun test procedure going to be rigorously applied when checking for bounce?
BTW, I suggest that for all people who think it is unclear just print page 8 of the Millennium rule book and the next time someone checks your gun for bounce pull out that piece of paper and demand a standard gun test procedure. Stand up fo' yo' Rights!!!
Guys could we stay on subject
The main points here are:
1) When are we going to have a clear rule defining trigger bounce?
2) When is the standard gun test procedure going to be rigorously applied when checking for bounce?
BTW, I suggest that for all people who think it is unclear just print page 8 of the Millennium rule book and the next time someone checks your gun for bounce pull out that piece of paper and demand a standard gun test procedure. Stand up fo' yo' Rights!!!