Bad for the sport?

[Buddha 3]

Keep this in mind people.
We may be able to tell the difference between markers and possible custom sub groups, but the avarage joe out there in the streets doesn't see the difference. As a matter of fact, they don't see that it's a marker at all! They see a GUN. Try walking into a bank carrying your marker, and see how long it takes for the SWAT team to arrive. I can tell the difference between an M16A1 and a CAR15, but most people can't. Most of them don't even see the difference between a Tippmann 98 and an M16A1. To them it's just guns.
So if some rec player wants his marker to resemble an assault rifle that he thinks look cool, let him. Johnny Avarage ain't gonna see the difference.
Do you honestly believe that when the 'public' sees a group of camo clad people with markers, it'll look a lot different to them from a group of camo clad people with guns? Matter of fact, with the goggles on, the paintslingers look even more intimidating.

I do fully agree that markers like the one mentioned do not have a place in what we see as the 'public face of paintball', namely tournament ball.

 

[Tyger]

Here we go...

Ok, let me limber up first...

**StttttRRREEETTCHHHH!!!!!**

Ok, here we go. First of all the fantasy element is VERY powerful as a driving force of people. If I were to tell TJ that he really had no game, and that his sponsorship is based solely on him being a writer for PGI, It'd probably destroy him. (Well, it'd be a LIE, but it's an example none the less)

We all have fantasies. Rec guys, well, some rec guys like the fantasy of being a soldier. Mind you most of the fantasy people who play are renters, in rental camo, in rental goggles, in renter gear. Paintball is a fantasy. Remember that many fields STILL call themselves the "Friendly wargame". They have fields like "Hamburger Hill" and "Fort Bragg" and "Ho Chi Minh Trail". Did you know SC Village was once called by it's full name : "SAT CONG VILLAGE"? They don't talk about that much anymore, but the name of SC lives on. (TJ : ASk them next time you're there! They'll tell you!)

I could also point out "Air Soldier Products", "WORR game products", "Air America", "TM Ordinance", "Ronin Gear", "Enola Gaye" and many other militaristic themed company names.

Tourney guys have fantasies too. Don't believe me? Next tournament you go to, look around. See all the guys with names on their jerseys, numbers too? They're buying into the fantasy. The fantasy of being ATHLETES. I laugh when I think of it, because these guys smoke, drink like fishes, eat greasy cheeseburgers, all the while saying they're athletes!

Now before you get all defensive, let's look at this. NPPL play does not require you to wear jerseys. Most teams that play in the NPPL buy their jerseys. Sponsored teams do it at discount, but htey make a decision to BUY them. Why? To look more 'professional'. To look like a SPORTING team? To feel like a team? I argue that they want to play the role of an athlete. They want to feel like they're serious athletes.

The illusion is complete. They dress the part, they use the same looking gear, they play in the same environments, they dream of the millions of screaming fans... With the exceptions of the fan base, sounds like the 'rambo rec-baller' accusation to me. Now there's food for your brain.

No, as to the guns... If you're going to hammer on EVERYTHING that's called a gun, then let's make more changes.

glue gun : sticky stuff depositor
confetti gun : remote mirth and happiness device
nail gun : house holder upper
staple gun : wire plasterer
tennis ball gun : fuzzy spheriod launcher
"Big Guns" : http://www.ratemyrack.com (Over 21 only please!)
Sister Machine Gun : Rythmically Challenged angst ridden musicians
Radar Gun : tax base
t-shirt gun : portable mosh pit launching device
water gun : portable clothing hydration device (See "Big Guns" from earlier)

And, naturally, we'd have to crack down on the Sun Gun, Son of a guns, smoking guns, and we could never watch Gunsmoke or "Have Gun Will Travel".

Get over it people. Having candy-colored markers of militaristic looking paintguns won' tmake a diffrence in the long run in how people view the sport / game of paintball. In the end, people will judge a game / sport on the merits of it's players and atributes. It won't matter HOW you dress it up, eventually we'll make or break ourselves, no matter what you wear.

If I wanna use my Viper with the M-16 stock and the sight-rail grip, then I have the right to do that. The big honkin' hopper on the top won't fool anyone. If I wanna wear my camo, I have the right to. If I wanna use my olive JT mask and camo goggle skinz, I can. But... If I wanna use my Stroker, the chromed one, on nitrogen and use the clear revvy and the blue mask, then I have the right to do that too.

If someone wants a realistic looking gun, I know where to get 'em. I choose not to, because I don't get off on cosmetics. I'm not playing for the fantasy of being a warrior. I'm playing becasue I really, REALLY enjoy strategy on a real time basis. Rec, tourney, don't matter. I just like going hard.

Ok, I'm done.

-Tyger

 

[Darkwerks]

Jonh Molloy:

or a pt extreme pistol for rec) my personel opinion is paintball MARKERS should not be outfitted like real guns.

This would be the PT extreme , the marker that looks remarkably like a Berreta 92f, as used by a large majority of police across the world and current US military issue? The "PT" stands for "police training".

 

[rancid]

Go Tyger Go...

Just one small point - John, I had nout to do with the last thread - ie it wasn't me, you must be thinking of someone else.

 

[Richard Kirke (DUPS Rocket) UK]

Rec vs(?) Tourney

Lets face it guys, Rec-ball is a neccesary evil to tournament paintball (not that I am saying that rec-ball is evil btw, just that
tourneyball needs rec-ball). The whole issue of dressing your marker up like a real gun is slightly distaistful to me, but if people enjoy
it then sadly I don't have the right to stop them (as much as I would like to rule the world, all you idiots would stop me taking over
).

If you think that a cosmetics kit is bad have a look at this site:
http://www.alternativepaintball.com/

In fact my prediction is that this guy will get borred of his M-16 look-a-like becuase he is also getting a cocker, I will be pretty
suprised if he continues to use a tipman with a cocker to play with.

Having said that; what is bad about the war fantasy enactment image? Isn't it really what sucks young kids in? Isn't it what everyone talks
about when they play? If people had a choice of playing on sup'air or in the woods. I guess we are really between the two forces of atracting
kids and older kids (aka men) into playing, and keeping respectable.

We are always talking about the extreme looneys who want to carry a knife and wear war-paint, these guys would be unwelcome in any hobby I
would imagine, but the guys who want their kit to look like a real gun because they think it looks cool isn't really harmingm anyone it it?

Is this really bacause we believe it is bad, so it is bad, so we believe it's bad?

If not, why not?

Richard (who is just trying to play devil's advocate)

 

[TJ Lambini]

I think Buddha hit

the salient point - guns that fire stuff, any guns, any stuff, are what attracts bad press.

It ain't the military stuff - look at re-enacters. Go to any country show in the US - and I betcha in the UK too - and there will be hundreds of people dressed as historical soldiers - war of independence, roundheads and cavaliers, cavalry and Indians, whatever - and it's accepted and welcomed. No-one minds these guys dressing and acting like soldiers cos their guns are deacts - they don't work.

Ours, rec and tourney alike, do...and that's the issue. Nothing else. Shoot up a roadsign or a shop with an Angel IR3 wearing a JT top, or do it in Realtree with a Tippmann - think anyone will differentiate?

peace

 

[Jones the Paint Magnet]

Thanks to Tyger and others for introducing a little perspective here - I keep seeing things posted up like "necessary evil", "step backwards" and "rambo" which are about as ill-informed as your average paintball-slagging tabloid article.

Yes, people do get carried away on rec days (and go along for the wrong reasons), but I've seen plenty of toys get thrown out of prams at tournaments too. Every competitive combat sport I've watched, competed in or judged has had a similar number of people lose sight of the fact that it is a game. Sure, there may be a lot riding on it, but it doesn't excuse their attitude towards other players or marshalls.

Yes, we need to be careful of the image paintball presents, but then any sport is going to be marred by a minority of people who act like @ssholes - the fallacy is believing that this minority represents the whole, and I'm surprised to see so many paintballers falling into this lazy logical trap.

We need tourney players - it drives the development of the sport and gives a spectator friendly and media-appetising format. But how many people have £1000 or more to burn in getting into the tourney scene as their introduction to the sport? The primary port of call is usually going to be rec ball.

Also, as has been noted, rec ball is about fun. People will always enjoy the range of fields, scenarios, sides, chance to run around and get filthy etc. Ask most competitors of accepted combat sports if they would like some way of getting back to a non-lethal format that their sport derived from, and they usually say yes: even if only because it's nice to play outside the traditional rules framework for a change.

We're fortunate to have both ranges of format in this sport. They complement eachother, not hinder.

 

[Richard Kirke (DUPS Rocket) UK]

When I said

Neccesary evil, I was mearly saying that a lot of tourney ballers wish is would be unnecesary, I like it, its fun.

Richard

 

[rancid]

Just a quick point.

Shooting industry has always been fragmented: shotgun hates firearms; firearms hate airguns; airguns hates blackpowder and everyone hates practical rifle.

Government comes in in '88 and bans self loaders, all disciplines step back and look the other way... 'nout do with me' they say.

Terrible events of Dunblane, and the govt ban firearms, all the other disciplines look the other way - 'yep, ban em... it don't hurt me'.

Now govt are on airguns, deacs, airsoft etc. Shotgunners are going, yep ban em, long as I'm alright. Ten years later and all you've got is clay shooters. I mean, clay shooters? That's dangerous isn't it? Let's ban em.

Do you get the gist?

 

[TJ Lambini]

Ban clay shooting now!

What do I win?

Back to tha point though, kinda...Question: Most tourney ballers agree that concept fields are the holy grail of competitive ball, but would you still wanna play em in a non-competitive environment?

Me, I love concept - from the first ever Hyperball field on I've thunk it was the real deal and I still do.

However, if I ain't playing competitively and I wanna have fun, then woods, Vietnam villages, storm the castle etc. gets my vote every single time...

What about y'all?

peace