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XFactor to the NXL?

Robbo

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Baca Loco said:
1--perhaps you could simply pull out your trusty calculator and come up with the likeliest result and we can save real money by avoiding the plane fares, hotels, rentals and all the rest.
2--yes, of course it would but that's unfortunately not practicable.
2A--No, it makes perfect sense but the time and means don't currently exist given the Xball format and time commitment.
2B--Your imagination is apparently severely stunted.
2C--no, it isn't because you are conveniently leaving out how those 8 teams acquire their position and given the way advancement out of the prelim brackets is currently calculated 4 is serviceable but hardly ideal and 3 games to determine the relative merit of 4 teams is sadly inadequate.
3--your expectations of a Pro team are completely inconsequential given you know absolutely nothing about them other than what your calculator tells you and, frankly, it's this sort of quasi definitive-type statement that gets you in trouble with some of the other forum members here and diminishes your credibility in other areas.
4--this is, by my recollection, the second time you've made this kind of remark (in this thread) and I can't for the life of me understand why unless it's supposed to be some sort of veiled slight or subtle condescension. If so it's well off the mark and isn't scoring you any points. And if, by some delusional hubris, you imagine it reinforces your argument (such as it is) well, you're mistaken about that too.

Frikkin' eck Chicago, you got Baca AND Missy AND TJ all lined up against ure ass, the signs do not look good mate and you have about as much chance of getting outa this one alive as Bush has of winning a popularity contest within the Hezbollah.

One word of advice Chi Town, when Baca starts unloading them bullet points, put that Kevlar vest on or you gonna get blasted :)

Forum suicide seems the best and most honourable option here mate and to achieve this, all you have to do is go to the 'User Panel', click on options and then select 'Surrender', an automated message will be dispatched to the appropriate thread advising all posters of your imminent departure and acceptance of their points.

Your user name will then be summarily deleted and a cyber-wreath emailed to your next of kin.
 

Chicago

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I did not say there was a conspiracy. I said 2 things:

1) It looks bad when the league treats teams differently based on who their sponsor is. It's not a big deal - I doubt most people other than me would notice and many would argue (as you have) that the increased sponsorship justifies it. I think that's not an adequate justification and a dangerous slippery slope to be on, but that's my opinoin.

2) You engage in hypocracy where teams you sponsor, and the league you are affiliated with, are concerned. Specifically, if a team plays well in one league but not as well in another league, that team must be BETTER if they are winning in your league, and that teams that play better in the other league is immaterial as not convenient to your argument. Same logical argument, ignored when it doesn't work for you. As another example, you're quick to jump on XSV for being the dirtiest team in paintball when Rage uses exactly the same tactics. You then go on to say that I'm just using their rep from years prior, but I'm not. If I was going on that I'd say they were using physical violence. I am saying that Rage is not any better than XSV or 10 other Pro teams when it comes to taking every advantage they can get away with.

Now, I want to be clear that I don't think you're engaging in an intentional or unnatural level of hypocracy with regard to your teams/league. Everybody's got bias and it's natural to favor what you're familiar with and what's close to you. I'm not calling you names over it, but I'm not going to avoid calling you out on it either when it taints your arguments.

The only reason we're even talking about rage here is you're putting opinions on me that I don't even have, then making bad arguments to show those opinions are wrong. I said the best teams in the world play the NXL. Maybe I should have been more specific, but I didn't mean that the 16 teams in the NXL were the best 16 teams on the planet. And when you took issue with this, I made a comparison to NPPL to clarify - the bottom teams in NXL arn't the best in the world anymore than the bottom teams in NPPL are. There is clearly a gap between the top and bottom and some overlap and teams missing when you go back and forth.

You then went on to argue that since teams that play well in NXL don't play as well in NPPL and some NPPL teams don't play NXL that NPPL teams are better. This is just plain a logically bad argument - teams play in NPPL that play poorly in NXL. And teams not playing NXL doesn't mean anything - it's just as likely they'd do poorly in NXL as it is that they would do well.

"I do have to admit, however, to lacking some information"

This is uncharacteristicly honest for you.
It was uncharacteristically generous of me. The information I am lacking is whether the NXL teams that do not do as well in NPPL are even playing with the same players, or playing with their best players. The missing information would either going to confirm what we've been assuming or negate your entire argument, so the only argument being injured by the rosters not being available is mine. I think it's silly of you to take my generosity and throw it against me considering who is responsible for that information not being available and why that information is not available, and I'm going to let it go at that.

I am trying very hard to tread the fine line between providing relevant counter points to your arguments without engaging in mindlessly bashing things. There are much more convenient and sore spots to hit if we're going to engage in an all-out slander war, which you seem to be gearing up for in earnest when you bring out such informative arguments as 'he's a cocksucker'. I am going to decline the bait. Although you are probably not going to believe it, I respect the efforts and accomplishments of (at least most) of the people involved in 'your league'. I think YOU are even one of those people - despite the fact that we vocally and ferociously disagree on many items, there is no doubt that NPPL does some things better than anybody else in the industry and I'm pretty sure you're at least indirectly responsible for some or even many of those items.

I do think it is premature to consider Rage as great a team as you do, and I do think they are a team much better suited to 7-man than XBall, just as there are teams much better suited to XBall than 7-man. Two more events and we should know whether Rage is the Next Big Thing or is just another one of the teams that occasionally breaks into finals. I'd be happy to make a friendly wager as to which turns out to be the case.

I am aggressive. I am brutally honest, frequently unrefined, and very occasionally ;) mistaken. But don't expect me to roll over and play dead just because you throw a few names or threats at me. And if I am pissing you off, don't take my hard-nose pigheadedness about one issue (or even 10 issues) as a personal attack on everything you might like. It's not.


Baca... short response is sports are sports. Paintball doesn't exist in a vacuum where everything gets turned on it's head; principles that apply to advancing teams in football tournaments apply just as well to advancing teams in paintball tournaments. Tournaments are designed to accurately determine a winner, and to decreasing degrees of accuracy rank everyone else as you go down. We call 2nd place the team that loses the championship match, but it's entirely possible that the 3rd place team was better and just didn't get to prove it due to tournament structure, and it only gets worse from there.

If you are saying that the format change means there is less accuracy when ranking the 'middle of the pack' teams, you are right - but there wasn't much accuracy with the old way either, and the difference is minimal. Accurately ranking teams in the middle of the pack isn't an objective of the tournament, however; if it were, you wouldn't toss half the teams out after prelims, you'd make them play each other more.

Re: 'pretending' to be a pro team - I am not sure if you are arguing that the structure change is bad because players don't get as much play time. If you're not, then nevermind. If you are, my point is that the definition of 'professional' sports is 'sports for money', and if you are evaluating a tournament strucute based on how much you get to play vs. economically getting the prize money, you are not acting like a PROFESSIONAL sports team and, ergo, just pretending.
 

MissyQ

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Chicago said:
I did not say there was a conspiracy. I said 2 things:

1) It looks bad when the league treats teams differently based on who their sponsor is. It's not a big deal - I doubt most people other than me would notice and many would argue (as you have) that the increased sponsorship justifies it. I think that's not an adequate justification and a dangerous slippery slope to be on, but that's my opinoin.

.
I'm going to need you to spell this out for me. How exactly to the 'League' treat teams differently depending on their sponsor? I only got to read the first line of your post, and you drop that peice of **** out. What is wrong with you? You already said you didn't know when press the other teams got when they won, so what is your basis for comparison? WDP are organised enough to capitalise on the success of their sponsored team, so what? if Planet were a platinum sponsor, and equally organised, then you would see the same from them. Your insinuations are getting tiresome, back them up or shut the **** up.
 

Chicago

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Robbo said:
Frikkin' eck Chicago, you got Baca AND Missy AND TJ all lined up against ure ass, the signs do not look good mate and you have about as much chance of getting outa this one alive as Bush has of winning a popularity contest within the Hezbollah.
And I seem to have done it with regards to about 6 different things at the same time!

I couldn't find the surrender button though...
 

Chicago

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MissyQ said:
I'm going to need you to spell this out for me. How exactly to the 'League' treat teams differently depending on their sponsor? I only got to read the first line of your post, and you drop that peice of **** out. What is wrong with you? You already said you didn't know when press the other teams got when they won, so what is your basis for comparison? WDP are organised enough to capitalise on the success of their sponsored team, so what? if Planet were a platinum sponsor, and equally organised, then you would see the same from them. Your insinuations are getting tiresome, back them up or shut the **** up.
Very simply, teams that win apparently get different consideration for promotion of their equipment by the league based on the league sponsorship level of the team's sponsor. Those should be separate. If platinum sponsors get features of their teams and their equipment, then all platinum sponsors teams should get that. If teams that win get features about their equipment, then all teams that win should get that. Both you and Geoff argued that Rage deserved to have their equipment mentioned while XSV did not have their equipment promoted because WDP was a platinum sponsor, so I'm making a leap here based on that argument that that's what actually happened.

I do not want to come off as implying that the league set out to treat teams differently, just that it ended up happening and is something that ideally shouldn't happen.
 

MissyQ

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Here's another load of crap:

2) You engage in hypocracy where teams you sponsor, and the league you are affiliated with, are concerned. Specifically, if a team plays well in one league but not as well in another league, that team must be BETTER if they are winning in your league, and that teams that play better in the other league is immaterial as not convenient to your argument. Same logical argument, ignored when it doesn't work for you. As another example, you're quick to jump on XSV for being the dirtiest team in paintball when Rage uses exactly the same tactics. You then go on to say that I'm just using their rep from years prior, but I'm not. If I was going on that I'd say they were using physical violence. I am saying that Rage is not any better than XSV or 10 other Pro teams when it comes to taking every advantage they can get away with.

Give me an example. Rage? No, they only play the NPPL, what other team have I mentioned? XSV? I think XSV have worked more angles than Rage to get results. I think thats fair to say. I expect that Rage or any of the other teams would have worked the same angles if they had thought them up themselves, but fact is they didn't, XSV did, and that is the basis of my prior point about them being the dirtiest. Whats hypocritical about that?

And as for your generous nature, the gifts you give me are entirely unintentional. That much is for sure. I don't like accusations of bias that can't be backed up because as I have said to you many times, people on here might make the mistake of thinking you know what you are talking about. Time and time again we are shown that you don't, that you just like to throw around some shxt to see what sticks, well I won't put up with it. I know the extent to which the league goes to remain totally unbiased and I will continue to to defend the NPPL against the regular slurs you level at them. In fact I would happily defend the PSP too against such accusations, because they are simply unfounded.
You need to back up what you say Chicago, thats the long and short of it, and until you do, I will continue to think of you as a short-sighted under-skilled conspiracy theorist whose attempts at spin would be far more accurate if you witnessed some of the things you comment on.
 

MissyQ

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and FYI Chicago, there is a set structure in the NPPL regarding how much your sponsorship commitment is as a company, and how much exposure you are allowed to the NPPL database.

EG - a platinum sponsor gets 3 mail-outs to the database per event
a gold sponsor gets 1. Therefore the more you give to the league, the more you get back. This would be the reason that you see more WDP press on the website etc, WDP and Kingman are the only platinum sponsors of the league. WDP use ALL their promotional quota, Kingman do not. If PMI were a Platinum sponsor, they would have the option to get more exposure in the league. Its done in a fair way and WDP get no more than their allowance as a Platinum sponsor.
I hope you understand this now, and that some cold hard facts can perhaps dilute some of the ridiculous conclusions you seem to have reached.
 

MissyQ

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Chicago said:
Both you and Geoff argued that Rage deserved to have their equipment mentioned while XSV did not have their equipment promoted because WDP was a platinum sponsor, so I'm making a leap here based on that argument that that's what actually happened..
Wrong. Nobody said that XSV's equipment wasn't mentioned because WDP are a platinum sponsor. That was your own spin. It was the lack of Planets own Platinum sponsorship that was the reason for this. I had made that clear, and so had Geoff. Also, Rage didn't 'deserve' to have their equipment mentioned, 'deserve' doesn't come into it. WDP paid for that.
 

Baca Loco

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Robbo said:
One word of advice Chi Town, when Baca starts unloading them bullet points, put that Kevlar vest on or you gonna get blasted :)
C'mon, Pete. I only use them for the sake of clarity and I feel I've been unusually kind to Chicago. Nor will I argue with Chicago any further on this particular subject as I can see it would prove utterly pointless so no need to fear the bullet points.:) Once he assumed--in his last post--that surely we would both agree on the excessive nature of actually having all the teams play each other to determine who should move on I knew I was wasting my time.

And, Lane, I notice you've been lurking about a bit more of late. I've haven't made a bigger issue of this because it's already a done deal and while I don't mind tilting at the occasional windmill I'll see no satisfaction from this one. I didn't even respond to your novella over at the "other site" though I was sorely tempted.

And Missy--Boston was perhaps the overall best run NPPL event I've ever attended. I thought Rosie and the new methodology were significant improvements tho I'm not sure the system was truly tested. And the refs on-field were more active (at least on fields one and two) than I can recall seeing in the past. The new scheduling helps keep things running smoothly and on time and the layout of six fields aligned similarly to the way PSP Texas was set-up with staging and paint between the rows of fields is convenient and practical and making access to the grandstand for the show field in the middle of vendor's row assures reasonable traffic flow thru there as well. (That and putting registration nearly at the far end away from the parking area.) The flaws I noticed were the condition of the carpet and the fact the NPPL field was nothing close to level and flat. Nor was the Spyder field for that matter.
 

PSPGeoff

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There is always going to be a bit of a slope when working in a parking lot, (drainage ) San Diego will be the same. Also. its too bad you didn't play any games on the Eclipse field, or you would have witnesed one of the greatest individual reffing spectacals in all of paintball, the flag judge closest too the Chronic field was absolutely incredible.... Also San Diego will have a simialar layout with everything sandwiched in between the 6 fields....