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stongle

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Aug 23, 2002
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Even more flawed I'm afraid.......

If I remember correctly the PA League is essentially an exclusive club of teams vetted by the PA Committee. I remember teams having to submit a request and be approved to be a participant within the league, if the MPAL is essentially a members only club, your producing a Champion amongst yourselves not that of the nation? Sure "Club Members" maybe from throughout the UK, but since you controlled the entry requirements, how do you guarantee the impartiality of the league, or even it's claim to produce a national champion?

The league itself heavily stressed the need for a "local association" and even made it an entry requirement. Despite your reasoning behind this, the assumption that all teams are locally associated or even need to be, is not true for Paintball teams, or other sports. The best teams in the Country are effectively "Factory Teams" (or at least owe their existence to the massive levels of in-industry support), and since these are not really geographically linked, your membership requirement effectively excluded them from the start (even if they had already chosen to exclude themselves by virtue of lack of competition). In this regard Paintball is nothing like the oft quoted Football Analogies, as it resembles an extreme sport or even Motor sport model. Players and team members are generally from all over, not localised. Fair enough the Factory teams could have chosen to adopt a geographic association, or represent an area, but they do have primary sponsorship requirements, that will override any local deals / interest. This "In Industry" sponsorship for the top level teams means they are sponsor bound to compete at the highest levels where the competition if the highest, not competing for the geographic Championship of the PA Club. The inclusion criteria for the MPAL probably made it very difficult from the start for such teams to commit to the full league, if there was going to be a clash between training for MLTs and playing the MPAL. You perfectly within your rights to demand teams make a commitment to play all the legs of your tournament, but since some teams and players have overriding commitments (especially to their sponsors), they simply cannot acquiesce to your rules.

It's not a fact of the teams choose not to take part, but from the very beginning it must have been apparent exactly the level of teams such a league would attract. You even stated you aim was to build composite teams (players drawn from a number of teams), and you have moved to do so. The PA model and your vision isn't applicable for the Top level teams in the UK or even X Ball teams, it is applicable for development and nurturing paintball at a lower level by giving teams an identity to cling to the Factory teams by benefit of in industry support or statue already have. No matter how good your BBQ is, and it's organisation t, o claim to produce the best of anything other than your own League is Hype. And we all know what Public Enemy said about that.
 

Steve Hancock

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Steve, first off UK Champions, implies it is the best team does it not?
Admittedly there is a huge correlation between national champions and the best team in the country. But there is still a distinction between the two, as illustrated by my example of the possibility that the best English football team might not win the FA league due to prioritising the Euro champions league.

And the strength of this correlation is linked to the credibility of the title. Like your boxing analogy, a title held by a less than top-class fighter would have less credibility than another, which the top fighters compete for.

With out taking anything anyway from the PA's achievements, it is a new(ish) organisation, and although they are uncontested they are still not unanimously excepted as the national league. This is reflected by the room for increased credibility, which I expect will develop with time.

The point is no one is going to be the best in the country just by playing the PA league.

In contrast the best football teams in the UK get to be the best by playing the Premiership as that is where the best teams are.
Despite being “a beacon of reason” ;) your contrast in fact shows a similarity. The teams in the FA don’t get to be the best just by playing the FA either, the benefits of competing in the champions league for a teams performance are well known. Equally while I believe that the PA will raise the standard of UK paintball, teams will always be able to find ways to improve there game by playing at an international level.
 

Robbo

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Steve, I think we have rounded upon the real problem here and that is the 'newishness' of the league and perhaps its somewhat pretentious assertions.
We can all talk definitves and argue ourelves into oblivion all we like but the truth of the matter is this, the PA league does not produce the National Champions in the traditional usage of the words 'National Champion' and nor will it in the short to mid term.

As for the football analogy, it is only relevant to illustrate a narrow bandwith of points (which I adhered to), it breaks down in a definitive way, if you over-extend the parallel, as you did.

But, I think we are probably closer in principle than you think...
 

Steve Hancock

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Stongle

Your tone, and use of the term "members club" seems to imply that teams were turned away because of who they were or some personal preferences of the organisers. As far as I know, the only vetting was to sort teams in to correct divisions, or after the registration deadline to find teams of a suitable level to fill gaps in divisions.

However, you do make some good points about teams not being able to play the league due to other commitments. But how is that different from a football team who do not commit sufficient resources to be contenders for the national title, due to their prioritisation of the euro league. Admittedly the paintball teams are not playing the league at all, but that is just an extension of not fielding your best team. In both cases due to euro commitments teams have failed to be contenders for the national title, it doesn't stop you being the best team though.

(Sorry if you don't like the football analogy, but here's your chance to explain its flaws, BTW that doesn't include that they are different sports, that is the point of an analogy, it the aspects relevant to the area of comparison that need to be appropriate.)


EDIT: Missed your post there Robbo. - Perhaps it comes down to a subjective difference of opinion on the definition of the term "national champion". When i use it i don't mean the best team in the uk. Although having the best teams competing is neccesary for strong credability. Is that the key diffference of opinion?
 
Originally posted by Steve Hancock
Despite being “a beacon of reason” ;) your contrast in fact shows a similarity. The teams in the FA don’t get to be the best just by playing the FA either, the benefits of competing in the champions league for a teams performance are well known. Equally while I believe that the PA will raise the standard of UK paintball, teams will always be able to find ways to improve there game by playing at an international level.

Premiership teams DO get to be the best by playing the premiership, because thats where the top teams are. Players cant go and play the champions league without competing at the top level in the premiership. It is the feeder league for the Champions League.

To even consider the PA as a feeder league to the EXL or NPPL is ridiculous, because when you strip away all the hype the PA is just a local league, like any other.

If any UK team is serious about raising their game they will do three things:
1 Book themselves in to an entire MS or NPPL season.
2 Train
3 Train more

Playing your local tourney is alot of fun, but unfortunately it doesnt raise your game to anywhere near the international level.
 

Steve Hancock

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Originally posted by John C
Premiership teams DO get to be the best by playing the premiership, because thats where the top teams are. Players cant go and play the champions league without competing at the top level in the premiership. It is the feeder league for the Champions League.
This depends on what you mean by best, i was talking about the top 3 or 4 teams (rather than the premiership as a whole), the ones that are getting to play the champions league. Part of their level of play comes from having played the champions league. Hence they don't get to be the best (as in op 3 or 4) just by playing the premiership.

To even consider the PA as a feeder league to the EXL or NPPL is ridiculous, because when you strip away all the hype the PA is just a local league, like any other.
I wasn't.
 

Robbo

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Originally posted by Steve Hancock
This depends on what you mean by best....
Steve, your point is withering mate......you can't play in the Champions League unless you have already proved to be the best in the Premier League...end of !!!

Any benefits those said teams achieve after that by playing in the Champions league are academic !
 

Ben Frain

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Mr Robinson, this is going slightly off topic perhaps, but is there any chance we might see London Nexus playing the 2 day PA Cup event in October?

I have missed seeing the team play when they have done the odd S2K event and would enjoy seeing them play locally...

No alterior (sp?) motive here, I have no affiliation with anyone who has contributed to this thread thus far - just genuinely interested.
 

Robbo

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Originally posted by Ben Frain
Mr Robinson, this is going slightly off topic perhaps, but is there any chance we might see London Nexus playing the 2 day PA Cup event in October?

I have missed seeing the team play when they have done the odd S2K event and would enjoy seeing them play locally...

No alterior (sp?) motive here, I have no affiliation with anyone who has contributed to this thread thus far - just genuinely interested.
Ben, I doubt we will be going to that mate, no disrespect intended to anyone...we got other fish to fry !