X-Ball..........The Future ?
- Thread starter CROOKED-POPO
- Start date
Re: I hear ya, J, but it was really alot o' fun
I don't think you're a stupid rec-player. I think you're a mistaken rec-player--at least in this particular instance however, time will tell and if you're right you'll be vindicated at some point in time.
And, actually, you made it personal--as in, about you--with some pretty hefty carrying on about how offended you were and how badly you were treated. I'm sorry but it was all practically the very definition of pomposity.
And you or I have as much chance of playing pro X-Ball as we do of playing in the NBA, probably more. (That apparently is the crux of our disagreement.)
I probably spent more money as we actually shot some paint but I was never pissed off (tho there was that one homer call) but I never believed, nor do I now think, I wasted my time. I had a darn good time and while I'm disappointed we didn't win and I didn't have more of a chance to shoot the breeze with Robo I otherwise enjoyed every minute of it.
As to class status nobody fronted me to travel to PA, or stay in the Sheraton, or give me my paint but so what? I knew the terms I was dealing with from the get go and just because somebody else got something I didn't playing a game I didn't play doesn't mean a thing to me.
Tyg,
I don't think you're a stupid rec-player. I think you're a mistaken rec-player--at least in this particular instance however, time will tell and if you're right you'll be vindicated at some point in time.
And, actually, you made it personal--as in, about you--with some pretty hefty carrying on about how offended you were and how badly you were treated. I'm sorry but it was all practically the very definition of pomposity.
And you or I have as much chance of playing pro X-Ball as we do of playing in the NBA, probably more. (That apparently is the crux of our disagreement.)
I probably spent more money as we actually shot some paint but I was never pissed off (tho there was that one homer call) but I never believed, nor do I now think, I wasted my time. I had a darn good time and while I'm disappointed we didn't win and I didn't have more of a chance to shoot the breeze with Robo I otherwise enjoyed every minute of it.
As to class status nobody fronted me to travel to PA, or stay in the Sheraton, or give me my paint but so what? I knew the terms I was dealing with from the get go and just because somebody else got something I didn't playing a game I didn't play doesn't mean a thing to me.
Dude, you don't get it, do ya?
WHAT we've got here is FAILURE to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
[/cool hand luke mode]
Baca, I've been vinidicated more in my paintball career than I can count. I won't go into details here, but every time I get flamed out of my shorts, a year or so later people tell me "Dude, you were so right."
You don't understand that if things are allowed to go the way they are now, we are all locked out of X-ball format except the few who are "in the loop" that so many people deny exists. It's not the illuminiti, but it's a private affair. There's going to be no way to work up to that level unless you buy your way in, but that's another story.
Hey, believe what you want to bro. If you think we waisted our time at IAO by playing pump, you have that right. If you think that X-ball is an open field, OK then! Whatever works for you bro.
Me? Hell, in a year people will tell me I'm right. Again. And when they do, I might just have to change my attitude to being a smug and arrogant ******* and say "I told you so."
-Tyger
[cool hand luke mode]
WHAT we've got here is FAILURE to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.
[/cool hand luke mode]
Baca, I've been vinidicated more in my paintball career than I can count. I won't go into details here, but every time I get flamed out of my shorts, a year or so later people tell me "Dude, you were so right."
You don't understand that if things are allowed to go the way they are now, we are all locked out of X-ball format except the few who are "in the loop" that so many people deny exists. It's not the illuminiti, but it's a private affair. There's going to be no way to work up to that level unless you buy your way in, but that's another story.
Hey, believe what you want to bro. If you think we waisted our time at IAO by playing pump, you have that right. If you think that X-ball is an open field, OK then! Whatever works for you bro.
Me? Hell, in a year people will tell me I'm right. Again. And when they do, I might just have to change my attitude to being a smug and arrogant ******* and say "I told you so."
-Tyger
Actually the thread's important
The reason the thread should be important and other threads should pick up some of the same issues is because X-ball, if it works out, will change the face of paintball and all serious and interested players aren't necessarily goin' to like it so it's incumbent they make a wee effort to at least understand what's goin' on.
Control over X-Ball at the pro, franchise level will fall to a relatively closed group as Tyg sorta suggested and that exclusive club will grow on the basis of agreement by the existing owners. And so what?!
Such a situation doesn't mean a thing, particularly at this stage, to the potential players. What it means to potential players is the possibility of true professional status somewhere in the future that the current face of paintball won't ever support. In that regard it's a huge boon to the very best players.
So the follow-up question becomes what does X-Ball mean to the average tourney player? That answer becomes a little trickier but one thing it defintely doesn't mean is that tourney players will be somehow denied opportunities to play if they aren't playing X-Ball. As long as there are players and teams willing to spend real green there will be events to play--just like right now.
In fact, I have already spoken to players and promoters interested in the viability of X-Ball as a tourney format as tournies exist now. I honestly don't see it but as a special event or an invitational I'm sure someone will try it and the participants will enjoy it.
Bottom line, change is happening. Either you get informed and choose to have a voice or you get stuck with wherever more dynamic and active participants take the game.
On that basis, I don't begrudge Tyg his opinion but perhaps he'd serve himself and everyone else better by elaborating precisely what his concerns are and stop the nebulous pronouncements of doom.
The reason the thread should be important and other threads should pick up some of the same issues is because X-ball, if it works out, will change the face of paintball and all serious and interested players aren't necessarily goin' to like it so it's incumbent they make a wee effort to at least understand what's goin' on.
Control over X-Ball at the pro, franchise level will fall to a relatively closed group as Tyg sorta suggested and that exclusive club will grow on the basis of agreement by the existing owners. And so what?!
Such a situation doesn't mean a thing, particularly at this stage, to the potential players. What it means to potential players is the possibility of true professional status somewhere in the future that the current face of paintball won't ever support. In that regard it's a huge boon to the very best players.
So the follow-up question becomes what does X-Ball mean to the average tourney player? That answer becomes a little trickier but one thing it defintely doesn't mean is that tourney players will be somehow denied opportunities to play if they aren't playing X-Ball. As long as there are players and teams willing to spend real green there will be events to play--just like right now.
In fact, I have already spoken to players and promoters interested in the viability of X-Ball as a tourney format as tournies exist now. I honestly don't see it but as a special event or an invitational I'm sure someone will try it and the participants will enjoy it.
Bottom line, change is happening. Either you get informed and choose to have a voice or you get stuck with wherever more dynamic and active participants take the game.
On that basis, I don't begrudge Tyg his opinion but perhaps he'd serve himself and everyone else better by elaborating precisely what his concerns are and stop the nebulous pronouncements of doom.
[Mark--BL here, I've edited out remarks related to deleted material. If I've inadvertently altered any part of what you wanted to say otherwise my apologies.]
It was unfortunate from a tournament players point of view that the X-Ball exibition was held at the same time as a major amatuer tournament (but then if you had a new format would you just hold it in a field/areana where no one was already going to be there?...Sound marketing)
Personnal attacks are not great for anyone but at least it leaves a better taste when you know who is doing the attacking.
Baca got attacked in the past (pre mod days) for knowing things that he shouldn't (alledged to be able to know) but now is seen as a legitimate source.
Tyger is a rec player that is a matter of record...occasionally he plays tournaments so then he changes his hat (or ears) to that of a tournament player, in so far as he feels let down with the facilitys that were presented to him he has a legitimate gripe....but not with the X-ball organisors !!, but for him to be attacked for complaining about a tournament facilitys thats fine, its his right, other tournaments have been attacked for far worse things in both print and online and just because the current tournament in question is a higher profile that others it isn't ok for people to attack someone for an opinion, just that because of the height of profile of this event (and it IS due to to the "side show" of X-ball) seems to make any critisism unfair. We have been told for years that if you don't like it...and all about player power.....well paint prices have come down ...was that marketing or player power? we are lead to believe it was player power, never before has the power of the individual been as strong as until the widespread use of the internet....just magazines and chinese wispers until this stage.
X-ball as a franchise operation WILL preclude certain individuals from playing the format, so what ! The "game" will still be available to others...in Canada you can play the NHL but as you age or are infact not that good, you then change your game to play in fully competitive leagues but not allowing the body checks and sometimes slap shots, so we will be come spectators of X-ball but still players of paintball (5,7,10 woods or concept fields)
It was unfortunate from a tournament players point of view that the X-Ball exibition was held at the same time as a major amatuer tournament (but then if you had a new format would you just hold it in a field/areana where no one was already going to be there?...Sound marketing)
Personnal attacks are not great for anyone but at least it leaves a better taste when you know who is doing the attacking.
Baca got attacked in the past (pre mod days) for knowing things that he shouldn't (alledged to be able to know) but now is seen as a legitimate source.
Tyger is a rec player that is a matter of record...occasionally he plays tournaments so then he changes his hat (or ears) to that of a tournament player, in so far as he feels let down with the facilitys that were presented to him he has a legitimate gripe....but not with the X-ball organisors !!, but for him to be attacked for complaining about a tournament facilitys thats fine, its his right, other tournaments have been attacked for far worse things in both print and online and just because the current tournament in question is a higher profile that others it isn't ok for people to attack someone for an opinion, just that because of the height of profile of this event (and it IS due to to the "side show" of X-ball) seems to make any critisism unfair. We have been told for years that if you don't like it...and all about player power.....well paint prices have come down ...was that marketing or player power? we are lead to believe it was player power, never before has the power of the individual been as strong as until the widespread use of the internet....just magazines and chinese wispers until this stage.
X-ball as a franchise operation WILL preclude certain individuals from playing the format, so what ! The "game" will still be available to others...in Canada you can play the NHL but as you age or are infact not that good, you then change your game to play in fully competitive leagues but not allowing the body checks and sometimes slap shots, so we will be come spectators of X-ball but still players of paintball (5,7,10 woods or concept fields)
This thread - much ado about nothing (yet)...
... when you re-read everything, and see how what could have been an intelligent thread, has been trashed by name calling, mud sligning, and people ego's getting bruised - it is a shame.
What I don't understand is why people are worried about the "downfall of paintball" as we know it. Let's look at the facts...
1) The tournament scene makes up a portion of paintball played - split by who knows what percentages between tournie, serious rec and "twice-a-year-weekend-punter".
2) The tournament scene is further divided up into various levels - however you want to split it up, but for arguments sake lets call it local, regional, national & international. The reason why I don't included the Novice/Am/Pro classifications is because, for know it's easier to classify things using local etc. - because let's face it most of the Pro teams are also "international" level along with some Am's etc - so until we have proper divisions, let's just stick to where there teams play their games.
3) International level tournament teams are the only ones who will be effected by X-ball - why you might ask, simple - MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. It costs money to play in an 8 team X-Ball league - travel, hotel, paint, food - so why would sponsors shell out money to "nobodies" to play in this league, therefore these players will be chosen from the International level players.
Does this count me out - probably - does it count out most of my teammates - I'm pretty sure that it does - does this mean that we will all wake up tomorrow and stop playing - I BLOODY WELL HOPE NOT, BECAUSE WE HAVE PRACTICE AND I DON'T WANT TO BE THE ONLY ONE THERE.
As long as there are great numbers willing to play the game - there will be places to place, tournaments to enter and hotels to trash (oops, forget the last one). Sure X-Ball might end up being the top-of-the-pile when it comes to tournie ball, but the NBA is the top when it comes to hoops - and that doesn't stop millions from playing in the playgrounds, rec leagues, and even other pro leagues world over.
Until teams can afford to have 2 coaches, 2 pit crew members and 10 players on hand - as well as the 18 wheeler full of paint for each tournament - I can't see x-ball (as seen at the IAO) taking over. The format may make inroads into "the lower levels", but not without modification - it takes too much time, it uses too much paint, and the number of teams is DRASTICALLY lower than what is need to run the Campaign Cup.
Until that time - I will continue to practice, continue to play, continue to travel and continue to meet and talk to some of the best people in the world - other people who love the game as much as I do. I may become too old one day to break to the 50's, but that is why the back position was created, I may be too old to compete against the like of future Ollie Langs, Ryan Greenspans etc. but if things go like people think they will (X-ball - big time t.v. etc.) then I won't have to - they will be on t.v. but I will still be going to the Campaign Cup/Toulouse/Joy Masters with the rest of the "old farts" and we will talk about the "good 'ole days" over beer in the bar.
So in ending (and I know people are glad that I am) - will x-ball change things? Maybe - maybe not - but I think for the majority of us it won't mean a thing. If it is the format of the future, ways will be found for "the rest of us" to play it - if not a whole bunch of promoters will be going out of business.
goose
P.S. See y'all at the bar - I'll be the one with bad knees sitting in a wheelchair sipping my beer through a straw.
... when you re-read everything, and see how what could have been an intelligent thread, has been trashed by name calling, mud sligning, and people ego's getting bruised - it is a shame.
What I don't understand is why people are worried about the "downfall of paintball" as we know it. Let's look at the facts...
1) The tournament scene makes up a portion of paintball played - split by who knows what percentages between tournie, serious rec and "twice-a-year-weekend-punter".
2) The tournament scene is further divided up into various levels - however you want to split it up, but for arguments sake lets call it local, regional, national & international. The reason why I don't included the Novice/Am/Pro classifications is because, for know it's easier to classify things using local etc. - because let's face it most of the Pro teams are also "international" level along with some Am's etc - so until we have proper divisions, let's just stick to where there teams play their games.
3) International level tournament teams are the only ones who will be effected by X-ball - why you might ask, simple - MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. It costs money to play in an 8 team X-Ball league - travel, hotel, paint, food - so why would sponsors shell out money to "nobodies" to play in this league, therefore these players will be chosen from the International level players.
Does this count me out - probably - does it count out most of my teammates - I'm pretty sure that it does - does this mean that we will all wake up tomorrow and stop playing - I BLOODY WELL HOPE NOT, BECAUSE WE HAVE PRACTICE AND I DON'T WANT TO BE THE ONLY ONE THERE.
As long as there are great numbers willing to play the game - there will be places to place, tournaments to enter and hotels to trash (oops, forget the last one). Sure X-Ball might end up being the top-of-the-pile when it comes to tournie ball, but the NBA is the top when it comes to hoops - and that doesn't stop millions from playing in the playgrounds, rec leagues, and even other pro leagues world over.
Until teams can afford to have 2 coaches, 2 pit crew members and 10 players on hand - as well as the 18 wheeler full of paint for each tournament - I can't see x-ball (as seen at the IAO) taking over. The format may make inroads into "the lower levels", but not without modification - it takes too much time, it uses too much paint, and the number of teams is DRASTICALLY lower than what is need to run the Campaign Cup.
Until that time - I will continue to practice, continue to play, continue to travel and continue to meet and talk to some of the best people in the world - other people who love the game as much as I do. I may become too old one day to break to the 50's, but that is why the back position was created, I may be too old to compete against the like of future Ollie Langs, Ryan Greenspans etc. but if things go like people think they will (X-ball - big time t.v. etc.) then I won't have to - they will be on t.v. but I will still be going to the Campaign Cup/Toulouse/Joy Masters with the rest of the "old farts" and we will talk about the "good 'ole days" over beer in the bar.
So in ending (and I know people are glad that I am) - will x-ball change things? Maybe - maybe not - but I think for the majority of us it won't mean a thing. If it is the format of the future, ways will be found for "the rest of us" to play it - if not a whole bunch of promoters will be going out of business.
goose
P.S. See y'all at the bar - I'll be the one with bad knees sitting in a wheelchair sipping my beer through a straw.
This thread - much ado about nothing (yet)...
). I do think the fact that it is significantly different to the tournaments that will continue to be played could be an issue.
The analogy of the NBA vs playgrounds is IMO mostly incorrect. Yes people play basketball, they play baseball, football, cricket, snooker, etc, etc. They play at school, college, club, league or whatever level, the difference between that and tourney/X-ball is that they are playing the same game.
A lot of people that play sunday league football do so knowing they are playing the same game as the pro's, that with a bit of "luck" they too could be playing at that hallowed stadium Anfield with the players they look at on TV and admire. Young players play the same game, get picked for their talent at that game and could go on to selection for club and country.
What do we have with X-Ball?
Well we have a game structure that is different to that played currently, we have a total rethink in tactics and style and even as Robbo tried the types of player.
Where is the pool of talent going to demonstrate itself? how can a good tourney player in short games prove they have the concentration, fitness and ability to play in an X-Ball game?
Unless you play the game, it's going to be a difficult step up if you're talking about truly professional teams. I don't think it will be as closed a net as Tyger seems to think, but it ain't the same.
At the moment a tourney player can watch a pro game at millenium or at NPPL and think "one day that'll be me". I'm not sure they'll think that of X-ball.
It sounds like fun to play, but I don't think my bank manager will like me if I tried
Inane ramblings over, if that makes any sense to the rest of you it'll be a miracle
Whilst I personally don't think X-Ball will doom tourney paintball into the depths of history, (I bloody hope not I want to start playing again soon
). I do think the fact that it is significantly different to the tournaments that will continue to be played could be an issue.The analogy of the NBA vs playgrounds is IMO mostly incorrect. Yes people play basketball, they play baseball, football, cricket, snooker, etc, etc. They play at school, college, club, league or whatever level, the difference between that and tourney/X-ball is that they are playing the same game.
A lot of people that play sunday league football do so knowing they are playing the same game as the pro's, that with a bit of "luck" they too could be playing at that hallowed stadium Anfield with the players they look at on TV and admire. Young players play the same game, get picked for their talent at that game and could go on to selection for club and country.
What do we have with X-Ball?
Well we have a game structure that is different to that played currently, we have a total rethink in tactics and style and even as Robbo tried the types of player.
Where is the pool of talent going to demonstrate itself? how can a good tourney player in short games prove they have the concentration, fitness and ability to play in an X-Ball game?
Unless you play the game, it's going to be a difficult step up if you're talking about truly professional teams. I don't think it will be as closed a net as Tyger seems to think, but it ain't the same.
At the moment a tourney player can watch a pro game at millenium or at NPPL and think "one day that'll be me". I'm not sure they'll think that of X-ball.
It sounds like fun to play, but I don't think my bank manager will like me if I tried
Inane ramblings over, if that makes any sense to the rest of you it'll be a miracle
Okay, kids
If anyone reaches this point and things toward the end of the thread seem a bit odd material has been removed. If I inadvertently removed anyone's post that had a contribution to the general thread I apologise (the command doesn't allow me to read entire content of all posts so I tried to pick and choose and edit but it was a bit of a mess.) Please re-post whatever I screwed up.
PS--for any posts or elements that don't make any sense to you. Don't ask, you don't want to know.
Pete--this includes your explanatory post after the fact. With all the related posts and comments deleted it seemed unnecessary and only served to give a glimmer of life to the deceased. For anyone who saw the deleted material the pertinent part of Pete's post was the information that the poster requested the post be removed.
If anyone reaches this point and things toward the end of the thread seem a bit odd material has been removed. If I inadvertently removed anyone's post that had a contribution to the general thread I apologise (the command doesn't allow me to read entire content of all posts so I tried to pick and choose and edit but it was a bit of a mess.) Please re-post whatever I screwed up.
PS--for any posts or elements that don't make any sense to you. Don't ask, you don't want to know.
Pete--this includes your explanatory post after the fact. With all the related posts and comments deleted it seemed unnecessary and only served to give a glimmer of life to the deceased. For anyone who saw the deleted material the pertinent part of Pete's post was the information that the poster requested the post be removed.
Cube...
... the NBA anology does not fall short, and here's why. When was the last time that you played hoops (if you do - I don't know) or know anyone who does, who played 4 x 12 minute quarters, using the 24 second shot clock, the NBA 3 point line, no-zone defense (when that was the illegal defense rule), 6 personal fouls and 3 t.v. timeouts a quarter?
Sure, at it very basic level it's the same sport - ball in hoop = 2 points etc. - however all of the things that I have mentioned are rules only at the NBA level. Also - go to playgrounds - what do you see people playing - it's pick-up to a certain score - not time, no time outs, hell it could even be 3-on-3 half court.
What the various forms of basketball give you, as the player, is the ability to find a level & game that fits you and one that you like playing. You have different tactics when it come to 3-on-3, different tactics if you are playing full or half court - things change - players adapt.
What we have in x-ball is different - but at the heart of it, it is still the same game - I shoot you, you go to the dead zone. Sure game play is longer, sure the fields may be a little different and sure the tactics might be different - but again players need to adapt. This kinda reminds me of the thread that was active last week in regards to the fields at the Joy Masters - same kinda thing - fields that where a little different to what people expected, and teams either adapted or got rolled in 40 seconds.
The point I was trying to get at with my previous post was - X-Ball is not a feasable format for the majority of players at the current time, these players will then naturally choose to play the form that suits them. No matter how keen organizers are on the idea of full x-ball tournaments - it just won't happen right now for the majority of players, too many things stand in the way - and the major factor being the cost of paint. Also players shouldn't be worried about the traditional 7 man tournaments dissapearing anytime soon - the organizers are not that dumb.
goose
... the NBA anology does not fall short, and here's why. When was the last time that you played hoops (if you do - I don't know) or know anyone who does, who played 4 x 12 minute quarters, using the 24 second shot clock, the NBA 3 point line, no-zone defense (when that was the illegal defense rule), 6 personal fouls and 3 t.v. timeouts a quarter?
Sure, at it very basic level it's the same sport - ball in hoop = 2 points etc. - however all of the things that I have mentioned are rules only at the NBA level. Also - go to playgrounds - what do you see people playing - it's pick-up to a certain score - not time, no time outs, hell it could even be 3-on-3 half court.
What the various forms of basketball give you, as the player, is the ability to find a level & game that fits you and one that you like playing. You have different tactics when it come to 3-on-3, different tactics if you are playing full or half court - things change - players adapt.
What we have in x-ball is different - but at the heart of it, it is still the same game - I shoot you, you go to the dead zone. Sure game play is longer, sure the fields may be a little different and sure the tactics might be different - but again players need to adapt. This kinda reminds me of the thread that was active last week in regards to the fields at the Joy Masters - same kinda thing - fields that where a little different to what people expected, and teams either adapted or got rolled in 40 seconds.
The point I was trying to get at with my previous post was - X-Ball is not a feasable format for the majority of players at the current time, these players will then naturally choose to play the form that suits them. No matter how keen organizers are on the idea of full x-ball tournaments - it just won't happen right now for the majority of players, too many things stand in the way - and the major factor being the cost of paint. Also players shouldn't be worried about the traditional 7 man tournaments dissapearing anytime soon - the organizers are not that dumb.
goose