Whitch teams to play the exl???

[Beaker]

Pete, I agree that the scenario of an investor pumping in the money then losing the team out of the top flight would cause a little friction

The way I see it, is that a locked system - that does not have the draft picks and salary cap systems which control the NFL etc in a fair way and allowing the less successful franchises to build back up again - brings with it the big risk that team X has a bad couple of seasons, loses their "good" players to the top EXL teams and so can't compete as well.

We have already seen it to some extent with SC Iromen losing players to Miami and now the majority of the rest giving up on NXL. Now because the franchise has the money from DYE they can afford to bring in new players and recycle. But if you translated that to the EXL, what's to say that if the Ducks get off to a bad start, Joy offers their star players spots and the rest walk, what then, without a major sponsors money like the NXL I fear that a team that has a bad run will find it extremly hard to recover.

If you pan that out over a few seasons it's a bit of the rich get richer and the poor get poorer (within the EXL even) and so you need a way to break that downward spiral. The NFL uses a draft and salary cap, Euro leagues promotion/relegation.

I can't see a draft system working for quite some time with us, so to me the only option to prevent the league getting stale is promotion/relegation.

And this is ignoring all the arguements regarding the feelings of teams outside the EXL who might feel short changed by the whole deal.

If you said the top 8 will do this first, but you can work for it and you'll get to be a part of it. I think the more "professional" minded teams might start having 3 or 4 year plans to get there, without that to aim for I think Euroball might well suffer as there is nothing for the teams to aim for.

 

[tukisilva]

Today you waked up with an enlightening spirit.

Finally you are giving us something, although it all spins around possibilities and not facts (Dick Clark is allegedly going; at the end of next year there will be).
Now we have a more complete view of the dammed thing (the ones that didn’t puzzled it)

Now the strictly E-Teams makes sense. The thing that doesn’t make any sense at all is the way the Board didn’t defend the USA Teams that were in the MS last year(s).

Cheers

 

[Wadidiz]

I call bull****!

Why do you automatically assume that people who don't happen to agree with you are:

a) stoopid [sic]

or

b) selfish manipulators carrying forth a selfish agenda?

Originally posted by Robbo
...I don't call having an agenda outside of the interests of European Paintball inspirational, far from it.

I happened to have believed (at the time) that my proposal was in the best interest of European PB, in the best interest of Millennium and in the best interest of the participating teams. I have already explained my reasons. If you disagree I don't consider you stoopid or evil.

Originally posted by Robbo
how can it be noble to ignore all the negatives of running a 16 team league?

I haven't seen a good case yet presented for why there should only be 8 participants in the EXL. On the contrary I have read better cases from others on why there should be at least a couple of more. The only legitimate reason I can see now for only 8 is that NXL and Millennium have already agreed to have it that way.

Originally posted by Robbo
How can it be selfless to inflict upon a new born league a doubling in entry list

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the number originally proposed was 10, 8 Euros and 2 NXL. In which case what I proposed is a 60% increase, not doubling. Even simply adding 2 more Euroteams (which I think Nick suggested, wonder what his motives are?) would be better.

Originally posted by Robbo
thereby diluting the quality just so's he can sit back and wallow in Hardcore's gratitude ?

What a load! I like the HC guys. They are really cool (now I can wallow even more!). But I don't really know them any better than say Tontons or Dynasty. I just run into them at tournaments and have had a beer or two with some of them.

Originally posted by Robbo
I don't call it stubborn or selfless or noble, I call it stoopid and self seeking because what lies at the very heart of this is; Steve is a very bright guy, this ain't a very bright stance bearing in mind all the evidence stacked against it.
And when you get bright guys advocating stupid things especially after people have explained the fault lines, and they still continue with the 16 team mantra, it means there is an agenda just below the surface and it don’t take much scratching to see what it is.

I accept that it will probably be 8 total teams. But I had good and sufficient reasons to have it bigger IMO, even if nobody else in the world agreed with me.

As I said earlier, I'm glad that you and Nexus are very much part of the picture here. You certainly have a lot of good ideas and an admirable vision of Euro PB. It goes without saying that you also have your other interests very much present: PGI and Nexus. I don't fault you for that.

Steve

 

[Baca Loco]

Baca

originally posted by Nick Poppins
Prior Nickism I Am NOT saying that the owners of the NXL/EXL will directly invest in the lower levels of the sport - it is much to early to say why and how they would do that.
Baca Response 3--but that is exactly what they are doing now according to them!

3 - Maybe they are looking at it from the same perspective as me ?


3A - Nick Poppins if you please ? - So you think all the positive impacts we agree on (2A- More events, better events, more sponsorships, more players, etc.) will hit paintball - only to vanish again ?

Nick

3--not logical. My point is and was that while there are essential and practical reasons for those with the wherewithal to directly invest in the current PB structure once the structure is radically transformed along with the means of revenue generation and methods of promoting PB to the public there will be very few reasons left for them to continue doing so.

3A--No, I think all the impacts you believe to be somehow immediately positive are neither immediate nor positive for a lot of today's current tourney players. Where, for example, is this influx of money gonna go? To the pay-to-play crowd? Sure it is. And what does a large influx of new players do except dilute the current pool of skills and leave alot of average players suddenly below average, for instance. And certainly if there are more players willing to pay to play more promotors will try to serve that interest in order to make some money and competition among providers will deliver a level of better events. But it's still pay-to-play for the majority and contrary to the general view sponsorship dollars are already moving away from direct team support. (And yes, I could name a coupla names but I won't. Even so it only stands to reason.)
Consider the upheaval the changes made in the last year and a half have caused to tourney PB and then order up change a few magnitudes greater and try to suggest the "impact" will surely be cake and ice cream for everyone. It won't be. It's gonna be chaos and confusion for awhile even if it all shakes out great in the end. That's all I'm saying.

 

[Buddha 3]

I call bull****!

Originally posted by Wadidiz
I haven't seen a good case yet presented for why there should only be 8 participants in the EXL. On the contrary I have read better cases from others on why there should be at least a couple of more. The only legitimate reason I can see now for only 8 is that NXL and Millennium have already agreed to have it that way.

That's actually quite easy. Even though I feel that 8 teams don't really make a true league, you can ask yourself the question if there are enough teams in Europe to flesh out a bigger league that have the quality to give the American teams a run for their money. Would those teams actually contribute something to the league, or would they just be a bunch of punching bags for the top teams, thus diminishing the overall quality of the competition?

 

[Wadidiz]

Re: I call bull****!

Originally posted by Buddha 3
That's actually quite easy. Even though I feel that 8 teams don't really make a true league, you can ask yourself the question if there are enough teams in Europe to flesh out a bigger league that have the quality to give the American teams a run for their money. Would those teams actually contribute something to the league, or would they just be a bunch of punching bags for the top teams, thus diminishing the overall quality of the competition?

I don't mind beating this thing even more although it probably is already dead.

According to what you're saying, Jay, we should probably cut the number from 8 to maybe 4. Why? Because I don't see any substantial quality difference myself between the bottom four teams, ranking regardless. In fact I would bet even money on Hardcore (just below Beard's ranking) against one or two of the teams ranked in the top four (Now Hardcore really owe me! Why can't they be Fat Lady's Charms!).

I submit that the bottom 2 of 10 Euro teams would contribute as much as, say, Detroit Thunder or Baltimore Trauma do to the NXL (and I don't mean that in any negative way).

Besides, as long as the top 10 Euroteams can really play ball, which they can, then what difference does it make when the time comes for play-offs? It will still be the best 4 that represent Europe. With one or two more we will be more certain that we haven't missed one or more of the best.

I guess what it comes down to is the parity of numbers: NXL have 8, therefore EXL must have 8. Outside of that "logic" I think a body would be hard pressed to come up with the "right" number that ensures absolute quality of competition. LESS than 8 would probably be more "right".

Maybe since NXL has a few teams that would (with great certainty) easily get beat by a couple of non-NXL teams, then we must duplicate the same situation here, I suppose.

So if the generals have decided that it's 8, I'll say it again, then we'll make it work with 8.

But it is a far cry from "quite easy" to say that is the best number.

Steve

 

[Robbo]

Tuk The Dick Clark proposals for the EXL has been mentioned before by myself in previous posts and it is this that has set the direction we must now follow as a consequence.
We don't have to of course but if we wish to optimise our financial and media opportunities then we need to at least jog along in the same direction.
As for the MS not defending the US teams from last year, what do you mean exactly ??

Steve Why do we even bother with this routine, you say something outlandish (not always but now and again) I attack it, you defend it and then spiral out of all rationale and then eventually after many posts, you put yer hands up, wave the white flag and defer to the more rational argument. It has happened time and again between us.
I can't even be bothered to dismantle your last post this time but suffice to say, it has more holes in than a pair of fishnet stockings.
You have not made one point of substance regarding the rationale of having 16 teams whereas I have made many why it should not be.
Now, you are an intelligent guy Steve (I am not patronising you), don't mug yourself off by trying to reduce this debate to me just being an ass, it runs a lot deeper than that as you well know.
Your advocacy of 16 teams is not sustainable in any way !

 

[Red_Merkin]

Thanks Pete, that clarifies a few things.

I have the feeling that the American teams arn't going to be too happy about getting cut out of the Top League of Millennium Paintball being closed to them. I expect that Rodney's expression of feeling 'screwed over' after all the support that they gave to the series might be echoed by other yanks that supported the series last year, (Strange, BC, BushWackers, Avalanche, etc...)

Is the Millennium Series going to ignore some of it's best paying customers? Is it going to be worth it for the American Pros to travel to Europe to play Premiere League Ball ? And without the top euro pros playing in the Premiere League won't that make a massive jump in the level of competition between the Yank Pros, and the rest of the Euro Pros (ranked 9th and downward).

It has been suggested that Campaign may be an EXL event next year. (i am sort of out of the loop, so i'm not quoting fact, just rumor) If so, what cause would Dynasty, Strange or any other top yank team have for comming over to play? They can't play the EXL, cause that's closed to them, so they play the Premiere League, against teams that really don't pose a serious challenge (not the kind that can beat them in the new Premiere Format, multiple games etc...). It's hard enough to get Yank teams to come and play over here, now we're relegating them to play 'amateur ball'? Maybe they'll be drawn by the easy pay cheque,...

Please excuse if i'm overlooking something very obvious, i'm a bit out of the loop stuck over here in Canada... Have i missed something, or am i right in saying that this may be very good for the top 8 euro teams but really crap for the Millennium Series as a whole?

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by Robbo
You have not made one point of substance regarding the rationale of having 16 teams whereas I have made many why it should not be...Your advocacy of 16 teams is not sustainable in any way !

I won't continue trying to argue my idea now that I see there is most likely nothing that can change the 8-team EXL.

But I think there was plenty of substance to my argument for 16 teams. You just don't agree and I don't agree with your arguments. It's that simple. And I don't accept being called stupid or self-serving because I have different ideas. You can count on me coming back whenever that comes from anybody.

Colin has just made a good argument for including some non-NXL teams and Nick made some for having more than 8 teams.

So, the main thing is: it will probably be 8 and, if I'm involved in any way with this, I'll simply work my butt off to make the best of it, smiling all the while.

Peace.

POST EDIT PS:

Some of the "outlandish" ideas I was lambasted for, if you recall, was the idea that there would ever be an EXL with NXL involvement.

 

[Wadidiz]

Hey Steve

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff

1) 8 Euro EXL teams
2) 10 Euro EXL teams and 2 NXL teams
3) 16 teams

Your position is at least closer to mine. I've probably said already that I think NXL involvement is the better way.

At risk of going even more overboard with repetition, my priorities would be:

1) 10 - 11 Euroteams + 2 NXL + 3 - 4 non-NXL American teams (max. 16)
2) 8 Euroteams + 2 NXL + 2 non-NXL
3) 6 Euroteams + 2 NXL
4) 8 Euroteams

If I am currying favor with anybody it is with the American teams that participated this year and contributed tremendously to the attractiveness and dynamism of the Millennium events. Particularly Dynasty and Strange. Call me hopelessly patriotic if you will or say that my head is up their asses. I just think it would be a terrible mistake in many ways to relegate them to second-tier. It would be tantamount to shooting ourselves in the foot.

(Will somebody take that damn CD off repeat!)

Steve