Whitch teams to play the exl???

[Baca Loco]

Come on Baca

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
1--That is an extremely simplistic view of how such commercial success of the NXL (or EXL) would play out.

2--It stands to reason, that if the NXL (or EXL), becomes comercially succesfull via tv coverage, such tv coverage will have an impact on the rest of the sport,

2A--that will mean everyone - teams, event promoters, manufacturers, etc., stand to reap benefits though an increased interest in paintball.

3--A televised paintball league WILL have a trickle down effect - and it does not have to be directly in the form of economic subsidies from the NXL (or EXL) in order to work - the marketplace as a whole will undergo changes that are positive to everyone.

4--BUT.... that all has very little to do with what this thread is about (what teams are to play EXL) - and as such you should remove your own post and my answer to it !



Nick

1--maybe but I note you don't suggest it's wrong. Why if the principle players are suddenly involved in big money, REAL sports development would they continue to have an interest in a money losing proposition?
2--impact yes, but of what sort is highly debatable depending on where an individual happens to find themself on the Paintball spectrum.
2A--teams--how? Event promotors whose events have no direct connection to the nascent Pro Sport? In a format already showing signs of bursting at the seams in terms of workable scale? The claim that it is certain to help is certainly pithy but hardly certain.
3--Okay, how 'bout one likely example that will benefit the average Am B team or player?
4--I was responding to Steve's umpteenth plea for a touchy, feely everybody's happy version of the EXL. Please note I'm no longer modding this forum so get Piper to do it.

 

[Robbo]

Nick, for fear of contracting 'Waddidism' and end up with the debilitating condition of forever repeating myself, I think the 8 teams should comprise of 8 Euro teams only with no recourse to Americanism.
It makes no sense whatsoever to have participants that do not have the same goal but can also have a profound effect on proceedings, that of making it to the top four at the end of the season to play in the Orlando World Series.

I think there is enough 'in house' interest to float this particular XBall boat without resorting to anomalous and unnecessary US entries.

As far as what the MS expect or are planning for with regard to final numbers, I have no idea but I also think it is not set in concrete yet and if enough of the participating Euro teams agree on necessary changes to be made, I am pretty sure the MS board would agree.

 

[Robbo]

I would hope they don't but if they did go down that road then I think I would need to call Sergey, Mag and Laurent to see what they thought with regards to total numbers of teams allowed in.

I can't see any advantage for the promoters in getting any NXL teams across.
Now remember, they only negotiated NXL team involvement to appease us and it would seem ludicrous to me for them to insist on any US involvement if the Euro teams themselves now deem it unnecessary.

 

[Red_Merkin]

Hey Pete;
I'm a bit confused here because i thought you'd be the one to say that we need the American teams in European Paintball.
Wouldn't the American Teams raise the standard of the game?
Don't the American teams raise the 'international' stature of the event?

I'd say that one of the major draws of the Millennium Series is the American teams, I know Niall spends a lot of time and money to get the Yank teams over to Campaign Cup, cause they hold an imense draw for lower ranked and local teams to attend the event.

Not allowing the American teams to play X-ball will probably mean these teams won't come to the respecitve X-ball Millennium Events, which will be disasterous for these events. I can see why the Promoters would want the American teams in the EXL, why wouldn't the Teams want the Americans to play too?

Beard, why are we playing two different formats? Surely we should be playing X-ball or Premiere League, not both? It appears that the League is split between two conflicting formats, perhaps you can shed some light on what the advantage is for having two formats.

 

[Baca Loco]

Baca

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
1) Yes I do - that is what points 2 through 4 are about

2) I note you agree it will have an impact on everyone, and that you are only incertain about the degree !

2A) I'll get back to that in a sec.

3) My position is one of looking at the big perspective. I Am NOT saying that the owners of the NXL/EXL will directly invest in the lower levels of the sport - it is much to early to say why and how they would do that (albeit the ones that are manufacturers would be extremely stupid not to continue to do so). -
3A--What I AM saying is, that increased media exposure and awareness of paintball WILL generate an influx of money, players, events, etc. at any level of the sport, and that will benefit everyone, including the Am B team you ask me to build a scenario for here.

4) Fair enough.... but don't fault Steve, he is a child of the 60's

Nick

1--and yet you no have answers, just mushy happy faced sorta platitudes. (To which your entitled. )
2--well, doh! An impact is neither good or bad. Any significant change will have an impact of one degree or another. Agreeing on that is utterly meaningless.
2A--and yet, you didn't. Get back to that point in a sec. Except with that non-specific happy ending idea in 3A. Tsk, tsk.
3--but that is exactly what they are doing now according to them!
3A--can I call you Mary Poppins from now on? Actually I asked for one likely benefit to an average Am B team and while I agree on the likely outcomes you mention I see those more like a short term tidal wave in terms of their impact.
Longer term, say 10 or 15 years down the road the results could be great. And if it isn't the NXL or EXL specifically, if PB succeeds like many hope it eventually will the upheaval and impact on Joe PBaller won't be to his liking.
4--I don't fault Steve at all. His willingness to suffer all our slings and arrows is inspirational whether he's being noble and selfless or merely incredibly stubborn. I'm down with either one.

PS--no need to argue this endlessly. I hope you're right, Ms. Poppins, er, Nick. After all, there's a first (or maybe a second time) for everything.

 

[Wadidiz]

16 teams!

 

[Robbo]

Re: Baca

Originally posted by Baca Loco
I don't fault Steve at all. His willingness to suffer all our slings and arrows is inspirational whether he's being noble and selfless or merely incredibly stubborn. I'm down with either one.

Hey Paul, I don't call having an agenda outside of the interests of European Paintball inspirational, far from it.
Nobility and selflessness ain't even on the menu here, how can it be noble to ignore all the negatives of running a 16 team league?
How can it be selfless to inflict upon a new born league a doubling in entry list thereby diluting the quality just so's he can sit back and wallow in Hardcore's gratitude ?

I don't call it stubborn or selfless or noble, I call it stoopid and self seeking because what lies at the very heart of this is; Steve is a very bright guy, this ain't a very bright stance bearing in mind all the evidence stacked against it.
And when you get bright guys advocating stupid things especially after people have explained the fault lines, and they still continue with the 16 team mantra, it means there is an agenda just below the surface and it don’t take much scratching to see what it is.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Red_Merkin
Hey Pete;
I'm a bit confused here because i thought you'd be the one to say that we need the American teams in European Paintball.
Wouldn't the American Teams raise the standard of the game?
Don't the American teams raise the 'international' stature of the event?

I'd say that one of the major draws of the Millennium Series is the American teams, I know Niall spends a lot of time and money to get the Yank teams over to Campaign Cup, cause they hold an imense draw for lower ranked and local teams to attend the event.

Not allowing the American teams to play X-ball will probably mean these teams won't come to the respecitve X-ball Millennium Events, which will be disasterous for these events. I can see why the Promoters would want the American teams in the EXL, why wouldn't the Teams want the Americans to play too?

Beard, why are we playing two different formats? Surely we should be playing X-ball or Premiere League, not both? It appears that the League is split between two conflicting formats, perhaps you can shed some light on what the advantage is for having two formats.

Hey Col, ok here goes :-
If we were setting up an XBall league with a view to courting TV interest then US involvement is a must.
If we were part of a stand alone World Series, then US involvement is also a must.

But...... the courting of TV has already been done here, Dick Clark is allegedly going to sign up the rights to EXL in February and at the end of next year there will be a televised world Cup where the top 4 EXL teams bash heads with the top 4 yanks.
This being the case, it negates the need for US team involvement in trying to sell the game, the game's already been sold and has locked us into proceedings.

Secondly, we may be part of a World series but it has now moved away from an integrated year long version that was originally proposed last year, toward this EXL - NXL divide with integration at the end of year.
One league is 100% American and the other should be 100% European otherwise it makes a mockery of it all.
We don't entertain the idea of having Real Madrid in the Premier league just because it would make the league look better or make the teams play better.
We need to create our own identity now and not rely on the Yanks to legitimise us.
We may be behind the Americans in terms of playing…..but not that much.
We need an opportunity to carve out our own destiny and direction here and not at the cheap expense of having a few yank teams to spice up proceedings.
Sergey has proved to everybody that with a little work and direction we can all get up there with the best.
It's time we all grew up here, promoters and teams alike, professionalism is sitting uneasily over us all at the moment. As I have said before, we either get serious or we get stuffed, it's as easy as that.
Have a great New year Col and thanks for all yer support in 2003!

 

[Beaker]

Originally posted by Robbo
Secondly, we may be part of a World series but it has now moved away from an integrated year long version that was originally proposed last year, toward this EXL - NXL divide with integration at the end of year.
One league is 100% American and the other should be 100% European otherwise it makes a mockery of it all.

Well explained, and I agree 100% (not that it counts for s**t but hey)

The only issue I have is the one of promotion/relegation. If the franchises are locked forever then I can only see the top teams racing away and leaving 1 or 2 teams floundering at the bottom of the league. Add in relegation and it means that there is something for the remaining pro/top am teams to genuinely aim for over time, and validifies the league as being the truly best.

If you say it's a locked league then I think it will put a lot of the "paying public" out of joint for some genuine reasons, but if you allow some movement in and out of it then you get the cream constantly at the top.

As for Hardcore, I really feel for them, but by everything I've seen here (I haven't worked anything out myself) the result they would have needed at Campaign would have been highly improbable.

 

[Robbo]

Hey Beaks, I feel ambivalent toward the locking in of teams. The whole reason the American model locks franchises in is so the investors / sponsors for each team in that league can have some security.
After all, supposing some team were ******* lucky enough to find a sponsor / backer to pump in say 200 grand.
And then after just one season, that team gets relegated.
Investors are gonna be discouraged if they can say 'bye byes' to their monies so quickly; for this to grow along traditoinal business lines, investors need security.
This lies at the nub of 'locked in' franchises but I also like the idea of the European model of leagues where teams are relegated and promoted and in this way we can provide the league with new blood albeit slowly.

There are pros and cons for this and people more intelligent than I will have a better insight and direction as to which way to go.
But since the TV deal is inextricably linked to the American NXL and American TV, I fear the luxury of choice between franchise 'lock ins' or not, may well be one that is not offered to us.
If I had to choose, I think I would go along with having promotion and relegation where teams like Hardcore could get in, and I am pretty sure they would after the first season.