Whitch teams to play the exl???

[tukisilva]

By Robbo:
“We are supposed to be running a European league where the best four eventually play the best four Americans.”

Yes, and that is corret.

”There should be no mix and match here, it's quite clear, European and American leagues will clash in Orlando, that's the whole idea!!!”

I believe the original idea its to have the 8 top E teams more 2 NXL teams. (Everybody agrees that 10 in a bad number but…)
What im saying is that US Teams that supported the Series last season should fill those USA empty places at the EXL.

So the problem is witch E teams should be in?
It’s in this part that Dynasty and Strange should have a vote, coz they have the knowledge of our game as well as us and they “will be” a part of the EXL, even if they cant apply to the big prize (going to Orlando representing EXL)

By Nick:
“What would the point be of having lots of US teams in the EXL, if either they could not qualify for the World Series”

Itch event is a single event so I suppose there are prize moneys for them , right ?

Hoppe I made my self clear this time.

Cheers

 

[Buddha 3]

Again, who are we trying to sell this format to? The UK? Then we are doing the right thing. If not, then the Mill Board has completely missed the point, and no amount of sugarcoating is going to make it right.
Let's see what we have now...
England (NOT the UK)
Denmark
Sweden
France
Russia
England and France (and I presume Russia) are pretty large TV markets. No disrespect, but Denmark and Sweden (which gets no less than two teams...) are most definitely not. Not including the likes of Germany, Spain, and Italy in a deal which is specifically tailored for televising, is just plain stupid and displays a total lack of knowledge of viewer markets. Jesus, even Holland is a bigger audience than Denmark or Sweden...
Ofcourse it makes perfect sense to include the best teams (won't get involved in that argument), but since we are emulating the US anyway, why not follow their pattern of linking the teams to cities that make sense? (even if the link is only imaginary, like most of the Miami Effect boys living in Cali)
Just using them as an example, but it's easy for the Ducklings to link to a German city (Bremen is just across the border, and Berlin Ducklings soundskinda good as well )
The way it is being done we are missing a HUGE marketshare, and this way it will be a big, miserable failure. Personally, I am far from impressed, and I think paintball will remain a sideshow for a long time to come...

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by tukisilva
By Robbo:
“We are supposed to be running a European league where the best four eventually play the best four Americans.”

Yes, and that is corret.

”There should be no mix and match here, it's quite clear, European and American leagues will clash in Orlando, that's the whole idea!!!”

I believe the original idea its to have the 8 top E teams more 2 NXL teams. (Everybody agrees that 10 in a bad number but…)
What im saying is that US Teams that supported the Series last season should fill those USA empty places at the EXL.

So the problem is witch E teams should be in?
It’s in this part that Dynasty and Strange should have a vote, coz they have the knowledge of our game as well as us and they “will be” a part of the EXL, even if they cant apply to the big prize (going to Orlando representing EXL)

Tuk, sorry mate, I give up, if you haven't worked out what you should have done by now from what I have written, it ain't my fault, I just can't be bothered keep explaining the same or common sense points anymore.

Steve, if I play in a European league where the whole idea is to get a top four place so I can get my team to Orlando to play in a televised tournament, I ain't interested whether it's fun or not.
This is serious paintball here; professional paintball, paintball that we invest huge amounts of time and money in and I don't give two sh1ts about any Yank teams coming over to make things look good.
You don't have the European soccer championships including any Brazilian or Colombian teams, why not ?
Coz it wouldn’t be European anymore that’s why.
Jeeeeez, why is to so hard to understand that Europe means Europe and we ain't in the business of making it fun for you or convenient for American teams to come across, if they cant go for the top four places then why the hell am I gonna wanna play them and why the hell should they affect who does go through, it makes no sense, it's all about producing European winners to go contest with the best in America.

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by Robbo
This is serious paintball here; professional paintball, paintball that we invest huge amounts of time and money in and I don't give two sh1ts about any Yank teams coming over to make things look good.

Coz it wouldn’t be European anymore that’s why.

Jeeeeez, why is to so hard to understand that Europe means Europe and we ain't in the business of making it fun for you or convenient for American teams to come across, if they cant go for the top four places then why the hell am I gonna wanna play them and why the hell should they affect who does go through, it makes no sense, it's all about producing European winners to go contest with the best in America.

Pete,

I agree with your stated purpose. But I see some clear justification for having some of the best teams in the world over who aren't European:

1. NXL are considered to be the best at X Ball. You, Pete, have written many times about the need for Euro sides to get to play against them before they become hopelessly unreachable. So if I were the captain of a potential EXL team I would be lobbying for having NXL participate.

2. The Division 1/Super 7 teams I mentioned would also be serious competition and thus add to the value of EXL. So if I were the captain of a potential EXL team I would be lobbying for having the top non-NXL American teams participate.

With all respect the idea I came up with is not to irritate you, and I'm glad Nexus looks lined up for EXL participation. I'm just trying to find some solutions that are more inclusive of ALL the top Millennium teams.

Maybe the mix I suggested could be rearranged. Maybe 11 Euro teams (then hardly any top Euro sides would be miffed) plus 2 NXL plus 3 other American sides per event.

Imagine these teams at the first EXL event:

Hardcore (Norway and Sweden)
Ignition (Sweden)
Joy Division (Sweden)
Nexus (UK)
Russian Legion (Russia)
Shockwave (UK)
Storm (UK)
Tigers (UK)
Tontons (France; combined Flingueurs and Acyd)
Ugly Ducklings (Denmark)
Worms (France?)

Philadelphia Americans
Oakland Assassins

Dynasty
Strange
Naughty Dogs
__________________________

Of course some of the Euros are better than others, but they are the ones that most likely will get shut out pretty quickly. The top teams will be seen more often and with greater intensity Day 2 and Day 3.

Again, bumping it up to 16 will bring in more of the top Euro teams and thus include important and competitive teams like Nexus or Hardcore (not have to exclude one or the other).

Having NXL compete against Euros for prize money can only benefit the Euro EXL teams.

Having the other top American teams compete against Euros for prize money can only benefit the Euro EXL teams.

But I could be wrong...

Steve

 

[Baca Loco]

Look at it like this

Any talk of two NXL teams showing up per EXL event has nothing to do with the competitions themselves and everything to do with temporarily pacifying upset NXL ballers who want more choices (and Euro trips.)

Six weeks ago all the talk was of a NPPL/MS alliance to create a "true" world league, world champion, world whatever. All of a sudden it's XBall instead despite the fact it was essentially rejected last year, with, supposedly, no hope of recovering what was passed on before. Yet, here we are.
How and why did this happen? Bottom line the magic dollar was waved and presto, EXL. And like all good sleight-of-hand the magic dollar remains on offer but out of reach at present. Now why would the XBall powers do this? Because it's still in their interest to do so and whatever one might calculate to be the potential of the EXL over the long term in the short term it shifts the Euro balance toward XBall and cuts off the previously apparent "natural" connection between the MS and NPPL.

If the Euro market eventually proves viable things are already taking shape and if it doesn't the NPPL has still been isolated as the PB war continues. (Yes, I know. There is no war and everybody loves everybody and everything everyone does is only because of all the love they have for Paintball and everybody and everything.)

Now you might ask yourself why was (and is) the SupaLeague format ever given serious consideration in the first place? [It's particular merits or demerits notwithstanding] Why was the MS apparently pushing for the adoption of Pro level SupaLeague when the MS could have much more easily, and with less fuss and upheavel, adopted the NPPL formula--especially as NPPL currently has a defacto TV tie-in with Fox Sports?
(You're on your own for answering that one, kids. )

Of course someday all this may prove to be great for Paintball. Seriously. Just keep in mind that you and your team aren't Paintball, you're just players. (Unless of course you're a franchise owner or future franchise owner. )

 

[Wadidiz]

Brilliant analysis of the state of affairs, Baca (except for the narrowly defined view on why NXL is included; you named one reason from their side. I named another from ours).

Now...it looks like we got EXL, like it or not. What do you think of my 16-team proposal compared to the other way?

 

[BWillie]

If you guys want a true pro league that is meant to showcase the best paintball, if you want to make a pro league "like the other sports", if you want paintball to be modeled after, and therefore stand the best chance to like real professional sports, you should do like the REAL professional sports do.

Select 8 or 12 or 16 people who are most capable of owning, managing, financing and marketing a team and sell them franchises. Then sit them in a room and have a draft.

Pete/PGI may own London Nexus, but Ledz may not be on that team. He may play for the Paris Ton Ton. Initially you could have a lottery style drawing to determine sequence of the draft and in following years the lowest team drafts first and the winningest team drafts last, for several rounds.

You leave it up to the frnachise owner to put together a scouting system that helps them determine who they want. They must also determine who the can get based on what they can come up with in terms of a comprehensive offer. London Nexus may want Oliver Lang, and he may be available when their first pick comes up, but it would probably not make sense wasting their pick drafting him because they probably have little chance of actually signing a contract with him to play. But, if he is still available on their 13th pick, they may want to draft him in order to have the rights to him as situations may change down the road and Ollie may meet a girl from London and want nothing more than the chance to come live in England. Or London Nexus may develope a relationship with a Billionaire paintball enthusist who wants to pay Ollie $100,000 a year to play on the team.

With time there would need to be salary caps, trade regulations, etc installed. But for now, a draft of existing players into newly formed PRO teams would be the way to start a PRO league. If we really want it to become PRO.

In all honesty, I don't think players, teams, or paintball as a sport are really ready or willing to actually do some of the things it takes to truly develope the sport into a professional one. We all just like to TALK about pipe dreams, what we'd do if it were up to us, and how the people who are actually doing the job are idiots, greedy *******s, and completely unqualified to accomplish what is needed.

In essence, if we (paintball) think there is a need to have a pro league, this means that we think the existing system is not the correct one. Why would we incorporate the very unprofessional way that teams have been assmbled under the current system into this thngs we expect to be better?

 

[Baca Loco]

Merry Christmas, Steve-O

Originally posted by Wadidiz
1--Brilliant analysis of the state of affairs, Baca -- 1A--(except for the narrowly defined view on why NXL is included; you named one reason from their side. I named another from ours).

2--Now...it looks like we got EXL, like it or not. What do you think of my 16-team proposal compared to the other way?

1--just doing my bit to help the kidz put it all into persepective.
1A--now there's the rub. As I see it you don't have a side, I'm sorry to say. The only considerations that matter are a) a proper launch that doesn't put the E in EXL to the lie--and so far, E stands for England but that's another thing entirely--and b) trying hard to keep the general active ballin' community on board while they attempt to give this particular Frankenstein life. (Not meant in a pejorative way, it simply sounded good. )
[A] matters cus as has already been pointed out future marketing needs to take into account the most viable markets. (Couple of ways to look at that issue, btw), and--
matters because until TV gives the monster real life its day-to-day life support comes directly and indirectly from the active ballin' community and large scale rejection would make things very difficult.
2--no chance in hell. Succesful non-NXL American participation makes a mockery of NXL elite status for starters. Has nothing to do with Euro markets either. And the reason you can't have a truckload of "deserving" Euros is because when it comes time to pony up for the franchises you can't risk having a number of them dropping out unable to meet the financial requirements. It would then appear the league was shaky from the get go. There's more but--what's the point?

 

[Robbo]

Paul, I agree with everything you just posted; as Steve suggested, an insightful analysis !

I think after such an intelligent appraisal, I might have wanted some conclusions or directives you might suggest as the best way to go...

Steve, I happen to now believe that we as Europeans especially with the likes of the Legion, Ton Tons and Joy can create a paintball environment that will enable seriously minded Euro teams to get up there with the Yanks.
I do not believe they have any lead on us if we were to play 7 man, Nexus have played against the Ironmen and NY Extreme, just losing to the Ironmen and beating NY Extreme.
Miami didn't fare that well in Toulouse considering and both NY Extreme teams got pretty bashed up when they came to the Campaign Cup
The difference will be apparent if we were to play them now at XBall, that I will concede no problem but that in itself does not mean we need them in the EXL.
You sound as though you are advocating their inclusion on a cosmetic basis because as you know, they do not get any points at all for being there.
At present, the plans are to have them over, it is only my opinion we do not need them if we are to run a serious European XBall league.
If they are included, then for god's sake, let's just drop the European prefix, it's a fcuking sham.

Anyway, have a great Xmas Paul and Steve !!!

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by BWillie
In essence, if we (paintball) think there is a need to have a pro league, this means that we think the existing system is not the correct one. Why would we incorporate the very unprofessional way that teams have been assmbled under the current system into this thngs we expect to be better?

BW, good to see one of your rare postings.

I take no issue with anything you suggested except--
Professional development as outlined doesn't start from Day X minus infinity. It starts from Day 1 and Paintball is still in the countdown to Day 1 phase. Should the NXL and EXL or something else eventually see a successful launch they would likely begin to incorporate just such features.

The part I object to is using "we (paintball)" as relative synonyms 'cus they ain't. Not even close. Nor, to date, is PB a sport but it has Sport potential. So you're mixing apples and oranges to my way of thinking.

PS--when is the schedule gonna be out? We need solid dates and locations. What are you guys doing anyway? [Just Kidding ]