UK National League Champions 2005

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Ben Frain
Mr Robinson, would you perhaps concede that to all intents and purposes there are two 'types' of top teams in the UK, national ones and international?

I appreciate that some teams currently do both (e.g. Tigers) but that does not negate the fact that teams such as your own (Nexus) are viewed by many (well, ok, maybe it's just me) as international and not a domestic team for the simple reason that you don't play the domestic series'?

Secondly, I don't know why anyone would care whether the PA (or any series for that matter) pays to get on TV? For me I think that is even MORE impressive. How many other organisers dip into their profits (if there even are any) to show their series on TV? .....erm....none. Surely all publicity is good publicity?

Thirdly, Bagpuss, WHAT ON EARTH are you talking about? Nearly everything you ask for is what the PA is already doing? It's virtually inch for inch the FA model? Which teams can't they accomodate? As far as I am aware all the teams that have wanted a place have been able to get one. Or am I missing something?

Ultimately, it is just a UK league, but many people have no desire, will, inclination or means to play abroad and for them, right now, there is no better domestic series to play. The PA does have the highest amount of top players from the UK month in month out. I'd even go out on a limb and say I would put money on the manc union having the skill to beat ANY uk team (Nexus included) in a best of 3. (that one was just for you Mr Robinson, watch you don't crush that mouse ) Having teams like that to watch each month surely can't be a bad thing for average players like myself? Got to be better than watching Dynasty Vs XSV on a stamp size PBN camera surely?

For those who aren't fond of the PA - would you not at least concede that the top 4-5 teams in the PA are a higher consistent standard than the top 4-5 teams in any other domestic series?

I can understand that some of the rhetoric might do your tits in but please, at least acknowledge the positives for the UK players. Without the PA there would just be even more disparate and fractured leagues. It is designed to be a national league, whether teams decide to include themselves in it or not is their choice.

Reading through this I think the essence of the Hatts/Robinson love affair is that Hatts vision is more insular and UK based (without much worry to Europe, USA etc) whilst Robbo's vision is UK place within the bigger picture of Europe/US.

I think both have their value's depending on where you want to play but arguing the various merits is a bit like arguing that apples are better than oranges.

Ben, your post would make quite a bit of sense if it weren’t for the Pro league but I have to say I agree the distinction you bring to the table of ‘national’ and ‘international’ isn’t one I had thought much about, but it has some merit.
Now Ben, I agree this creates a certain grey area but it’s a grey area that is so readily exploited by hatts and all his bull. He knows full well the PA League doesn’t produce the best team in the country, it merely produces a winner and the context of that win is what defines anything.

Everybody knows who the top three teams are and just because we play on the international circuit shouldn’t allow people like hatts to undervalue and disrespect teams like ours for his own ends, which believe me, he is doing.

I generally stay out of threads where he contributes because Duffy pulls rank on me and basically asks me to bite my lip and I will always respect what Duff asks of me but this time Ben, he tipped me over and I checked with Duff and asked him to read hatt’s post and he agreed with me that it was insulting and misleading.

Now, I know I can be a complete ******* sometimes, but I do not deviate from writing what I genuinely believe to be right and it’s the way I go about things rather than the substance of what I am saying that is a problem.

As for your take on the Sky TV deal, it’s the attendant misrepresentation that gets me with all his exploits, he implies that his PA league drew Sky to it as if by some entrepreneurial genius when in fact, anybody can get whatever they like (within reason) on Sky if they come across with a few grand.

As for the Manc union beating any of the top 3 teams in a best out of three: I will treat that little nugget with the disdain it certainly deserves and this is no way being disrespectful to Manc Union.

And FFS Ben, are you seriously suggesting the top 4 or 5 teams in the PA are better than the top 4 or 5 in the Pro league ??????
Are you really suggesting as much???

And how the hell you can say that with the advent of the PA league it has made things less disparate, bejeezus Ben, what on earth is your rationale for that?
That statement just makes no sense as the PA adds to the fracturing not lessens it.

And as for trying to classify the difference between me and hatts as one of differing emphases, well the emphasis isn’t confined to national / international considerations as you suggest, the difference is, I don’t bull****, he does.

I don’t suffer fools gladly and he is one if he thinks the PA is gonna produce the best team.
Nah, read my posts Ben, forget who it is who is writing them and read the content, there is no exaggeration, no lies, no bull****, just what is.

Ben you try to diffuse the situation by introducing the notion of parity and difference of opinion with your apples and oranges comment but in reality, the guy’s a fruitcake who imagines he is the St George of Paintball.
Ben you go play whatever you like and you believe whatever you like but when somebody like hatts turns round and tells me I don’t live in the real paintball world, then you have to take stock of the situation and take a valued guess as to who’s talking sense.
I think I know a tad more about what’s going on in the real world of paintball than hatts, but hey, I’m sure you’ll make your own decision.

 

[Markie C]

Having teams like that to watch each month surely can't be a bad thing for average players like myself? Got to be better than watching Dynasty Vs XSV on a stamp size PBN camera surely? [/B]

Well you can come to the xsv clinic and see them in real life

Yes that was a plug...........................................Booya

 

[Oli HPG]

Originally posted by Liz
I was going to keep completely out of this debate, as whatever comments I make or whichever comments made by someone else I support/contradict, I will be upsetting SOMEONE I'm friends with somewhere in paintball

However, there has been at least 2 attempts to get all the series organisers together and singing from the same hymn sheet that I know of in recent years (and I'm sure there have been many others) and they've broken down for various reasons mostly to do with the slightly different formats played by the series e.g. 5 vs 7 man was a big issue, a different number of rounds for different series, slight differences in the rules (e.g. Sosta's vs 1-4-1) and so on.
Until all the series are willing to give up some of their sacred cows and some of the currently total control they have over their own tournaments they won't be able to form a proper "National" series.
And until the players (or at least the teams) are able to commit to playing X times a year on defined dates in a national series then any such series results won't have true validity e.g team A runs away with the 4 legs they can be bothered to turn up to, but doesn't win the series because they didn't play the other 4.

Hi Liz, you upsetting someone...NEVER.

For teams to be able to commit to a set amount of legs/games, you need the proper funding.

Paintball is very expensive and without our sponsors we would not be able to play as much as we do. Smaller teams (but still just as important in the bigger pics as the big ones) pay mostly full wack for everything. I don't really think that most paintballers have a commitment problem, is more a cash flow problem.

If you can chose, what would you rather play? A league that gets you the reconition from sponsors that you need, or a domestic event, that mean nothing.

 

[Buns of steel]

PA League

Originally posted by Robbo
...the fact the Tigers only put in a reserve squad shows the level of importance they attach to it

Pete, was trying not to get involved in your problems with the PA and Hatts but couldn't let this go without a reply....the Guys put as much importance to an NPPL event as, say, an event at Dartford 7's(sorry Dave,would have said Euro 5-man, but Warren has photo's.) It would be disrespectful to the organisers and more importantly the TEAMS if we didn't.

If we do happen to put a "Substandard team " into an event don't assume it is because we think less of that event, without the financial backing that some teams in the paintball world get, we have had to finance this team internally(with some,sorry, lots of help from our sponsors), so although every one might want to play every event, some can't either financially or work-wise play every event.

Don't think I don't respect the importance of events, everything has a place in the pecking order, but please don't assume our level of respect to each event.

This is not a vieled "Dig" at either yourself or Nexus, it is purely in response to your comment.

Yours, Respectfully,
Steve.

P.S Most of our better results have been with "Reserve" teams. Might have to have a word with Big Pete about picking the teams.

 

[Manning26]

Originally posted by Bagpuss
Hi Liz, you upsetting someone...NEVER.

For teams to be able to commit to a set amount of legs/games, you need the proper funding.

Paintball is very expensive and without our sponsors we would not be able to play as much as we do. Smaller teams (but still just as important in the bigger pics as the big ones) pay mostly full wack for everything. I don't really think that most paintballers have a commitment problem, is more a cash flow problem.

If you can chose, what would you rather play? A league that gets you the reconition from sponsors that you need, or a domestic event, that mean nothing.

I'm sorry to butt in guys (and Liz of course ), but I'm going to address something that's only loosely related to this thread, so I apologize if I'm abusing my position in any way.

I want to address the discussion regarding the commitment of Brit teams to improve and all the subsequent whinging inherent in each and every thread that even touches on the subject. I also want to say that I intend no disrespect (especially to you Bagpuss, this is no way meant as an attack), but I think it's time for me to finally let off a little steam (I also do not expect anyone to really give a flying crap what I say anyway, so it works out for everyone ).


WARNING/ DAD MODE:

I was lucky to join a sponsored team as soon as I began playing tournaments over a decade ago, but it was still in no way a free ride. My commitment began there, as a 19 year old, paying for both myself and my little brother for weekly practice and every tournament we played (have lots of plastic little men, and medallions to show for it). I didn't get help from Mommy and Daddy- I worked two jobs to keep my apartment and pay my bills as creatively as possible, we drove an hour to get to our 'home' field in a 71 Mustang with a hole in the floorboard under my brothers feet just behind the hole in my right exhaust pipe causing us to have to point the air vents directly at our faces so we didn't suffocate (yes, it does explain a lot) from the fumes. I pawned everything I owned of value just so I could keep the cupboards filled with rice and Ramen, my living room was a chair in front of a tiny tv on a box, with a bed acting in no small way as a couch. No video games, no cool stereo, just books and Paintball magazines, and, you know Automag parts cluttering the entire place. You get the idea, but the point of this stupid little peek into my youth isn't for you to feel sorry for me, I lived that way because I loved Paintball. I could've used the money I was making to fix up my car, I could've had nice things, real life nice things, not Paintball nice things. I would more-than-likely be married to the first girl I really and truly loved (and was engaged to) if not for this godforsaken sport. Paintball was, and obviously still is my life, no matter how burnt out I get, no matter how ****ty my knees become, no matter how many little punkass Paintballers I want to punch in the face, no matter how many times I sit in a hotel in some craphole town missing the hell out of my son, I keep going, playing this dumbass game I'm not even very good at, all because somewhere, deep down, I love it. That is what people talk about when they're talking about commitment. I am in no way alone in this, there are tons of stories just like this and way worse, but I will say it seems to predominantly be people close to my generation or earlier. If you find yourself unwilling to get an extra job for lacking funds, or even get a job that allows you the time to play, MAKE your team your priority, make time to train or practice, do whatever it takes to be the absolute best you can be, then that's on you. You Brits are at a disadvantage, but it's absolutely nothing some real lifers couldn't pull you out of.

Alright, I've done enough damage to myself, I think it's time for bed.

 

[Buddha 3]

Originally posted by Ben Frain
For those who aren't fond of the PA - would you not at least concede that the top 4-5 teams in the PA are a higher consistent standard than the top 4-5 teams in any other domestic series?

One word: Scandinavia...

 

[Fleisher]

For my 10 pence worth Paintball in the UK needs a stong governing body like the FA ,with the "teeth" to tackle the game as a whole ,from punter to tourney,as its far too fragmented and always has been.

 

[Matski]

PA League

Originally posted by Buns of steel
....the Guys put as much importance to an NPPL event as, say, an event at Dartford 7's

There are also no american tanks anywhere near Baghdad..... You must be having a laugh, NPPL is a world ranking tournament series with prizes in the thousands of dollars. It actually means something....there is no comparative importance.
It's quite clear why your team have to commit to the series, but the PA will never be the 'national league' it is sold as. The best teams in the UK, with the exception of the Tigers, will never play there. It's a pokey, mutated format run by people who peddle bull**** in an attempt to add value. E.g. The lies about Shockwave 'itching' to join the league, later exposed by Sam Telfer on here....

*The time and money (in short supply) spent playing this league, with its dodgy rules, format and judges...would be MUCH better spent doing flat out training in house...for a team with high goals anyway. It's no surprise that Robbo speaks up when Hatton comes on here spouting crap that would indicate the contrary.

Its trigger time, and learning to play as a team...but it dosn't mean much more than that.

 

[Robbo]

PA League

Originally posted by Buns of steel
Pete, was trying not to get involved in your problems with the PA and Hatts but couldn't let this go without a reply....the Guys put as much importance to an NPPL event as, say, an event at Dartford 7's(sorry Dave,would have said Euro 5-man, but Warren has photo's.) It would be disrespectful to the organisers and more importantly the TEAMS if we didn't.

If we do happen to put a "Substandard team " into an event don't assume it is because we think less of that event, without the financial backing that some teams in the paintball world get, we have had to finance this team internally(with some,sorry, lots of help from our sponsors), so although every one might want to play every event, some can't either financially or work-wise play every event.

Don't think I don't respect the importance of events, everything has a place in the pecking order, but please don't assume our level of respect to each event.

This is not a vieled "Dig" at either yourself or Nexus, it is purely in response to your comment.

Yours, Respectfully,
Steve.

P.S Most of our better results have been with "Reserve" teams. Might have to have a word with Big Pete about picking the teams.

Steve, since you did join in with the thread to clarify your position I might as well bring up some conversations I have had with Pete and Warren, and I spoke at length with Warren last night for about 30 mins and I don't think I am breaking any confidences here in mentioning they didn't even want the Tigers to play in the event because they felt it was a waste of time and the only reason you guys were in it was because of pressure from a sponsor.
Warren agreed totally with my assessment of the PA's relevance and bought up some more problems he had with the rules, now this doesn't seem to marry well with what you are telling me now but hey, Pete and Warren might have one idea and you have another.
No matter, because I think Duffy summed it best of all when he said you would readily trade any first place in the PA with a Sunday Club placing either in the NPPL or Millennium, and Steve, I think we both know this to be true mate.
That tells you of the PA’s true relevance in the scheme of things.
Peace Out.

 

[Robbo]

Re: PA League

Originally posted by matski
There are also no american tanks anywhere near Baghdad..... You must be having a laugh, NPPL is a world ranking tournament series with prizes in the thousands of dollars. It actually means something....there is no comparative importance.
It's quite clear why your team have to commit to the series, but the PA will never be the 'national league' it is sold as. The best teams in the UK, with the exception of the Tigers, will never play there. It's a pokey, mutated format run by people who peddle bull**** in an attempt to add value. E.g. The lies about Shockwave 'itching' to join the league, later exposed by Sam Telfer on here....

*The time and money (in short supply) spent playing this league, with its dodgy rules, format and judges...would be MUCH better spent doing flat out training in house...for a team with high goals anyway. It's no surprise that Robbo speaks up when Hatton comes on here spouting crap that would indicate the contrary.

Its trigger time, and learning to play as a team...but it dosn't mean much more than that.

Matski, for the first time in history, me and you agree 100% on something, the relevance of the PA; and if me and you agree on something, then it MUST be true.