Ton Tons @ CC

[shamu]

DVV -

Even if the manufacturers released the code so it could be crc checked or verified on a players marker, there's nothing to stop the makers from inserting hidden or cheat capabilities into the code before it's given to the scrutineer. The whole idea of "verifying" code is just not feasible. (see Manike's long but thorough explanation above)

Even if an open source solution was used, I don't see it as feasible. There's too many ways to insert hidden parameters for code checking to be a workable solution. Unless the manufacturers do an about face on the whole ramping/additional features issue.

 

[nada]

Originally posted by shamu
Even if the manufacturers released the code so it could be crc checked or verified on a players marker, there's nothing to stop the makers from inserting hidden or cheat capabilities into the code before it's given to the scrutineer. The whole idea of "verifying" code is just not feasible. (see Manike's long but thorough explanation above)

yup.. it would be very easy to cheat such a scrutineer. just forget about it.

there are two solutions:

1) invest in equipment for the marshalls. give them power & respect (and a nice paycheck). start pulling players.

2) go back to mechanical markers

 

[shamu]

I've been seeing a lot of talk here and on other boards about how the refs are incompetent/untrained/halfwits/insert your favorite insult here. This seems to be the basis for the argument that refs can't be trusted to make important decisions, such as if a marker is ramping.

This is just another excuse for players to avoid responsiblity for their own actions (i.e. cheating) and perpetuates the most common excuse in this sport - "the ref screwed me." The simple fact is that the current generation of players take no responsiblity for their own actions. Instead, they seem to feel entitled to do as they please, when they please, and with no expectation of accountability. Every penalty, every loss is someone else's fault. Any attempt to curtail their belligerent, irresponsible actions (shooting at the crowd, ramping velocity, ramping frequency, etc) is "gay" or "bull****". Everyone wants to be a mini-gangsta, and they will use any excuse for their behavior. Ramping markers? Sure, everyone else is doing it. Caught wiping? I didn't wipe, the ref had it out for me.

The argument that someone has to prove your marker is ramping is inconsistent with other aspects of tournament officiating. Frankly, it's bull****.

Do refs have to prove playing on? No.
Do they have to prove wiping? No.
Do they have to prove out of bounds? No.
Do they have to prove overshooting? No.

All a referee can call is what he sees with his own eyes. Not what the crowd tells him. Not what his "gut instinct" is. And if what he sees is someone pulling the trigger 10 times and 20 balls coming out, he should asses the penalty. If he's not sure, take the gun and test it. And if it's blatants, asses the penalty. No robot, no excuses.

Any decent referee can tell when a gun ramps from 10 up to 20 bps. It's not the ones that give 2 extra balls we're looking to catch, it's the ones that ramp up to the hopper feed limit.

Referees are entrusted to judge the game impartially. Either the referees have the power to enforce the rules or they don't.

You want to get rid of the rampant gun cheats? Here's what you do...

- create a rules committe composed of non-affiliated experts. This means no pro captains making rules that benefit them. The inmates should not be running the asylum.
- create rules that are enforcable, not an exercise in writing loopholes.
- put more referees on the field. The game moves too fast for 8 sets of eyes to cover 14 players.
- better/ongoing training for referees
- invest in the equipment to help catch cheats, such as radar guns.

This will take time, money and effort but it's the only way you're going to get things back in control.

Think up all the fancy schemes you want, but at the start of every call is going to be a referee. Poorly trained halfwits that they are...

let's face it, would any normal, well adjusted person want that job?

 

[Red Ring Inflictor]

Originally posted by shamu
I've been seeing a lot of talk here and on other boards about how the refs are incompetent/untrained/halfwits/insert your favorite insult here. This seems to be the basis for the argument that refs can't be trusted to make important decisions, such as if a marker is ramping.

This is just another excuse for players to avoid responsiblity for their own actions (i.e. cheating) and perpetuates the most common excuse in this sport - "the ref screwed me." The simple fact is that the current generation of players take no responsiblity for their own actions. Instead, they seem to feel entitled to do as they please, when they please, and with no expectation of accountability. Every penalty, every loss is someone else's fault. Any attempt to curtail their belligerent, irresponsible actions (shooting at the crowd, ramping velocity, ramping frequency, etc) is "gay" or "bull****". Everyone wants to be a mini-gangsta, and they will use any excuse for their behavior. Ramping markers? Sure, everyone else is doing it. Caught wiping? I didn't wipe, the ref had it out for me.

The argument that someone has to prove your marker is ramping is inconsistent with other aspects of tournament officiating. Frankly, it's bull****.

Do refs have to prove playing on? No.
Do they have to prove wiping? No.
Do they have to prove out of bounds? No.
Do they have to prove overshooting? No.

All a referee can call is what he sees with his own eyes. Not what the crowd tells him. Not what his "gut instinct" is. And if what he sees is someone pulling the trigger 10 times and 20 balls coming out, he should asses the penalty. If he's not sure, take the gun and test it. And if it's blatants, asses the penalty. No robot, no excuses.

Any decent referee can tell when a gun ramps from 10 up to 20 bps. It's not the ones that give 2 extra balls we're looking to catch, it's the ones that ramp up to the hopper feed limit.

Referees are entrusted to judge the game impartially. Either the referees have the power to enforce the rules or they don't.

You want to get rid of the rampant gun cheats? Here's what you do...

- create a rules committe composed of non-affiliated experts. This means no pro captains making rules that benefit them. The inmates should not be running the asylum.
- create rules that are enforcable, not an exercise in writing loopholes.
- put more referees on the field. The game moves too fast for 8 sets of eyes to cover 14 players.
- better/ongoing training for referees
- invest in the equipment to help catch cheats, such as radar guns.

This will take time, money and effort but it's the only way you're going to get things back in control.

Think up all the fancy schemes you want, but at the start of every call is going to be a referee. Poorly trained halfwits that they are...

let's face it, would any normal, well adjusted person want that job?

Right said, Andrew! Exactly what I've been trying to say.

Even relatively honest players lie to themselves. It's human nature to want to save face, and more in front of teammates and themselves, in their own minds.

If a certain move fails and/or results in a penalty; if a game or a tournament is lost, then who's to blame? Of course! The refs; the mostly nameless, mostly faceless schmucks who take the shizit and who sometimes get hung out because we want to stay on our favorite scene (however masochistically it seems) and because we want to contribute to The Cause.

To the ref bashers: keep bashing; you'll get the reffing you deserve (and I don't mean payback; I mean more and more dregs regarding levels of competence).

 

[Missy Q]

we are the world - my arse!

Nice post Shamu. Way to be strong!

 

[jotajotaZ]

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Secondly... I'm not talking about how long it takes to programme a paintball board - it takes a long time, because it is very basic code (lots of 0s and 1s).... but what the programmes do is actually not that complicated.

Nick, no offense, do you work in marketing? Just checking.

And in my time we had to program using only zeroes. Those were the days.

 

[Freddie Brockdorff]

Just a couple of VERY cautious "newbie" questions from someone who knows nothing :

1) What would happend if say not only the team caught cheating were penalised, but also the manufacter of what board might be in question? Wouldn´t it actually then be far more "dangerous" for both teams and manufacters to do the cheat in the first place, rather than if just the players/teams got penalised?

2) Howcome it´s so hard technically to check the code on boards? Aren´t the electronics engineers checking it somehow before it hits the stores - like a second check-up after it being made? If so, then shouldn´t some other engineer be able to check it as well - and that off course without it taking long?

REALLY not trying to stir anything up here - just asking since it´s something I´ve been wondering about!

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff

lots of 0s and 1s

That made me giggle. You are Paintball's very own Paul Feyerabend Nick.

I can imagine you entering the pearly gates and God telling you, 'My son, it's all os and 1s'.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by shamu
I've been seeing a lot of talk here and on other boards about how the refs are incompetent/untrained/halfwits/insert your favorite insult here. This seems to be the basis for the argument that refs can't be trusted to make important decisions, such as if a marker is ramping.

This is just another excuse for players to avoid responsiblity for their own actions (i.e. cheating) and perpetuates the most common excuse in this sport - "the ref screwed me." The simple fact is that the current generation of players take no responsiblity for their own actions. Instead, they seem to feel entitled to do as they please, when they please, and with no expectation of accountability. Every penalty, every loss is someone else's fault. Any attempt to curtail their belligerent, irresponsible actions (shooting at the crowd, ramping velocity, ramping frequency, etc) is "gay" or "bull****". Everyone wants to be a mini-gangsta, and they will use any excuse for their behavior. Ramping markers? Sure, everyone else is doing it. Caught wiping? I didn't wipe, the ref had it out for me.

The argument that someone has to prove your marker is ramping is inconsistent with other aspects of tournament officiating. Frankly, it's bull****.

Do refs have to prove playing on? No.
Do they have to prove wiping? No.
Do they have to prove out of bounds? No.
Do they have to prove overshooting? No.

All a referee can call is what he sees with his own eyes. Not what the crowd tells him. Not what his "gut instinct" is. And if what he sees is someone pulling the trigger 10 times and 20 balls coming out, he should asses the penalty. If he's not sure, take the gun and test it. And if it's blatants, asses the penalty. No robot, no excuses.

Any decent referee can tell when a gun ramps from 10 up to 20 bps. It's not the ones that give 2 extra balls we're looking to catch, it's the ones that ramp up to the hopper feed limit.

Referees are entrusted to judge the game impartially. Either the referees have the power to enforce the rules or they don't.

You want to get rid of the rampant gun cheats? Here's what you do...

- create a rules committe composed of non-affiliated experts. This means no pro captains making rules that benefit them. The inmates should not be running the asylum.
- create rules that are enforcable, not an exercise in writing loopholes.
- put more referees on the field. The game moves too fast for 8 sets of eyes to cover 14 players.
- better/ongoing training for referees
- invest in the equipment to help catch cheats, such as radar guns.

This will take time, money and effort but it's the only way you're going to get things back in control.

Think up all the fancy schemes you want, but at the start of every call is going to be a referee. Poorly trained halfwits that they are...

let's face it, would any normal, well adjusted person want that job?

Best post I've seen on the subject in years.

Very similar to what we have been clamouring for every few years throughout paintball's history.

 

[Robbo]

OH MY GOD, is my idea gaining momentum.......whatever next..implementation, surely not