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duffistuta

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Nick, Missy - keep it civil-ish please.

As a sort-of-on-topic aside, I just came across this...now bear in mind this anecdote is about a team of kids.

"...a player from Breakout Kids left his armband on while in the dead box and after a few seconds, he re-inserted himself into the game. The refs immediately saw it and instituted a penalty. Epic SCP received 103 points (yes a hundred and three due to the penalty) and Breakout Kids got a big fat 0. The team also opened fire at the jeering crowd watching high above the field. Nobody was hit because of the nets, but it resulted in the stands being closed off for the remainder of the tournament and the complete disqualification of Breakout Kids from the XPSL events for an indefinite period of time."

Now maybe I'm getting old, but that is just insane...maybe Missy's right, maybe the players' mindset is so ****ing atrocious that we just need to give judges carte blanche to do what they have to do to get rid of the shower of ****s that seem to be springing up.
 

Nick Brockdorff

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and how do you read code from boards when all current boards that I know of... won't let you read code from the board, apart from maybe the Race gun. But then they give out their software for free anyway...
Manike:

Can you explain to me why those companies are so protective of their code?

Paintball boards hold some of the simplest code in the world of programming - it's extremely basic - and wanting to protect it is just a waste of time.

I fail to see any reason why manufacturers would be against submitting their code to a gun scrutineer - and leave their boards readable.

You may ofcourse have information I am not privy to - and if so, please set me straight (by explaining it).... but I have guys on my team that programme boards for Racegun, and from what they have told me, there is really not that much to protect?

Nick
 

Nick Brockdorff

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All these comments are from this thread alone, there are many more times you have said similar comments. This is what I based my post on. I would like to know exactly what the fxck you based yours on?
So? - are you alien to the concept that there are bad refs out there?

There are also good ones (about 50%).... but they would hardly be relevant to this debate - now would they?

Ask any of the good refs on the cirquit, and they will confirm to you that about half their colleagues are nowhere near to a level where they can administer the rule you suggest in a fair manner.

I stand behind what I know. What I know is affordable, what I know is practical, what I know is implementable. I deal only in fact. I do not have the luxury of indulging in flights of fancy. Thats your department.
So - you KNOW that the ALL the refs in the Millennium Series are good enough to rule on gun cheats by gut feeling alone? - I'm impressed by your confidence... maybe you should try playing a few games at Pro level, and then tell me if you still think so? - Better yet... try asking the captains of your sponsored teams if they have absolute confidence in ALL the refs having the abilities you seem to think they have.

Your a maniac if you think thats true
Well EXCUSE me - it seemed to me that you were opposed to a technological solution - and advocating a solution to the problem of gun cheats that relied completely on every ref being able to make calls on gut feeling.... please explain where I misunderstood?

admit you got yourself in a bit of a Tizz because I belittled you, and it stung.
So - you admit to belittling me? - then I guess you see you don't really qualify for an apology when I retorted? :)

You need facts and you don't have many
So - list the facts that are relevant - so that we can all debate the issue at your exulted level - or leave all us not knowing dick to debate at our lowly level, without snide comments from people that refuse to back up their comments with the information they claim to hold exclusively.

Nick
 

manike

INCEPTIONDESIGNS.COM
Jul 9, 2001
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Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Can you explain to me why those companies are so protective of their code?
Because of the work and cost involved in making it work, and work well. Also because of it's value for aftermarket board sales. Look at what boards are being sold for. You let the code out and anyone can use it to make a board. The board hardware is the easy bit.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Paintball boards hold some of the simplest code in the world of programming - it's extremely basic - and wanting to protect it is just a waste of time.
hahahaha You = Hilarious. Tell that to all the people that make aftermarket coded boards and that live off them.

Nick you really don't know what you are talking about when it comes to making the gun boards and the work/money involved in making them.

Go make an 'extremely basic' coded board and see how well it runs your gun, or another gun of a similar design but different board components etc. due to manufacturing tolerances.

You're just plain wrong.

Speak to any board programmer, there are huge amounts of time in a board code.

There is a lot to paintball gun coding and making it work well with all guns. The Timmy code is continually revised and updated, there are hundreds if not thousands of hours in the code and testing it on many different guns to make sure it runs them all as well as it can with all different loaders etc.

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
I fail to see any reason why manufacturers would be against submitting their code to a gun scrutineer - and leave their boards readable.
$$$$$$$ and more $$$$$$$ and more importantly $$$$$$$$$

What board do you use in your gun Nick?

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
You may ofcourse have information I am not privy to - and if so, please set me straight (by explaining it).... but I have guys on my team that programme boards for Racegun, and from what they have told me, there is really not that much to protect?
Really? Not the kind of thing I would expect Mort or whoever is on it now to say. Race software has been through many significant firmware updates and changes. I'd love them to say how many hours work are in that. Race software is also far from being the most uptodate or advanced code available currently.

Also be aware Race, doesn't actually let you read their 'code' as such, just lets you download settings and update firmware. This is still far less than what you are asking them to do. Ask your friends that do the code if they would be happy releasing the actual code language for everyone to read, and see what they say...

Again, what board do you use in your gun nick? Why do you use the NOX board instead of the stock board?

Surely the board code is so simple to write that anyone can make a good board and the nox board is just as good as the stock one? Isn't it?

How do you recommend your sponsors boards to someone else when they ask about them?

Do you say the code it very simple and easy to make so it doesn't matter which one they get?

Of course not.

What does that nox board retail for?

Now if you still have to ask why people wouldn't release the code...
 

Nick Brockdorff

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First of all Simon - there is no need for you to be insulting - at least not if you want dialogue to be civil.... or want dialogue at all.... you have this tendency to become extremely arrogant when dialogue happens to touch on one of the issues you actually know something about, which is rather unbecoming.

Secondly... I'm not talking about how long it takes to programme a paintball board - it takes a long time, because it is very basic code (lots of 0s and 1s).... but what the programmes do is actually not that complicated.

Why we use NOX boards? - because they are great products, despite being less expensive of many of the competitors.... but that actually not my point at all.

- My point is - that because paintball boards perform fairly simple operations - and basically all do the same things (at least on boards without cheat modes) - I fail to see what is so secret that it needs protecting.

I mean - how many different ways are there of programming a dwell setting or a ROF setting?

Again - feel free to enlighten me - and any other readers.... if you can do it in a courteous manner that is?

Nick
 

manike

INCEPTIONDESIGNS.COM
Jul 9, 2001
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Nick, if posting facts is insulting and arrogant, I'm sorry for that. It's the way engineers often come across, because the answers are defined and straight. There is no being 'wishy washy' to not insult your feelings.

You're insulting all the electronics engineers in paintball to state it is simple and easy and not worth protecting. Ever think about how your posts come across Nick?

It's still true though. The facts of what are involved, and the way companies feel about their software are not open to discussion. We will NOT let out our code. How do I know both of these FACTS? Obviously because this is part of what I do for a living.

Question and tell me I'm wrong by all means, but you won't be correct. When I tell you we won't do it, again tell me I'm wrong, but you won't be correct. I don't get you sometimes. At least I try to only post on subjects I am knowledgeable rather than to post like I know everything on all subjects.

Again, obviously from your post, you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to programming gun boards. You just don't. I'm sorry if that insults you but don't you think it would be worse to tell someone who works on these things that they don't know what's involved or possible/not possible? Which is what your posts are implying towards all of us Engineers in paintball.

You are still trying to argue something you don't know about and are wrong about. How else can I put it? Especially when you want to keep argueing it, and still don't have any reason to back up what you say, and yet I did try to outline it to you.

You are hilarious, I did actually laugh at your post, you try to feign knowledge by saying the code is a lot of 0's and 1'. Excuse me but that makes you sound really like you don't know what is involved, but that you think you do. If you only want to look at 0's and 1's you'll never see what the code is, and nor is that how code is programmed.

Code is programmed in a 'language' (there are quite a few being used, so your cheap engineer would need to be very good in all of them, which is rare) and then compiled into a hex file which is what you programme onto the board. Which file would you want to check Nick? and why? Why would one be useless to you and the other never ever given to you?

There is no point having 'dialogue' with you on this subject. In fact it's one reason I haven't been posting so much anymore, because however much you and others want to pontificate about having a workable solution you just don't, because you don't have the knowledge you need to do what you want to do. If when someone who does, tells you part of the information you need, you try to tell them they are insulting you, then you will never get answers.

You'll just keep talking about something that isn't possible and isn't likely to happen. Good luck with that. Do you want a solution? or just to talk on the internet?

How can I say that in a less insulting way? I'm not meaning to insult you, but obviously I can't say you are completely wrong without you taking offense.

Your solution won't work. None of the manufacturers will do what you want. You are wrong in your assumptions about what is involved.

Find another answer.

Your post above just again shows that you really don't know what is involved in programming a board. You don't want to listen though.

You want to say something is simple, that you don't have the skills to do, and that you have never done. You are incorrect in your assumptions.

You think that a gun board is only about rof settings and dwell times? That's why you don't know the subject on which you are talking. Those things are very simple agreed, they are probably not even 5% of what makes a good gun board. You think 'all gun boards basically do the same thing' again rubbish. You only see what you want to and the end result, you don't see how they get there. I work with an electronics engineer dedicated to writing code, we have electronic boards in many different types of guns, they all require different code and tuning to that gun. Not all the guns work the same, or even work with the same code.

It's like saying aeroplanes and boats are the same thing. Afterall they can both get you to the same place can't they?

Obviously not, and obviously they work in very different ways.

If you can't see nor do you want to see why you are wrong, then feel free not to enter into dialogue with me.

If you do come up with a solution I am one of the people who can try and help implement it. Right now you don't have it.

I agree with Missy Q that the manner of modern paintballers is horrific, and more power and better referrees is the best answer.

Don't see much abuse to refs on the rugby field do you? Why? because they have power, and use it when they need to.

Again, why is the NOX board a great product? It's so simple to do, why aren't they all?.... Simple question, you should be able to give me a simple answer. Do you recommend people to spend $99 on a board instead of using their stock one?

I'll leave you with:-

There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don’t.
 

manike

INCEPTIONDESIGNS.COM
Jul 9, 2001
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Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Secondly... I'm not talking about how long it takes to programme a paintball board - it takes a long time, because it is very basic code (lots of 0s and 1s).... but what the programmes do is actually not that complicated.
Honestly, I can't even believe you wrote this. I'm stunned.

And obviously you are hitting out with more personal insults when you are being countered. Not needed dude. You've been very on edge lately, with Robbo, Missy Q and myself. Might want to think about why and what those people represent in terms of knowledge in different areas of paintball?
 

Robbo

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Jul 5, 2001
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Originally posted by manike
Honestly, I can't even believe you wrote this. I'm stunned.

And obviously you are hitting out with more personal insults when you are being countered. Not needed dude. You've been very on edge lately, with Robbo, Missy Q and myself. Might want to think about why and what those people represent in terms of knowledge in different areas of paintball?

Oi, don't bring me into it, me and Nick are getting on fine and that's just how I like it..now where's those 'simple' base units of G,A,C and T....and what exactly can you do with them ?
:):)
 

DVV

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Ok, i think this discussion has gone beyond the topic... but anyways.

Cant say that i have any knowledge in programming, but..
You (boardmakers) dont have to "realese" the code to the public, just to the scrutineer? And then maybe a simple crc-check will verify the source? So the "operator" cant see the actual source?
As i said, dont know if this can be done, but in some other way im sure it can be done (and maybe "hacked" too=). But the manufactors maybe wont even allow the scrutineer to see their code.
Just a suggestion... =)


/DW