Thread re gun bounce

[Ben Frain]

Isn't this all just getting a little overly complicated? Forgive me as I don't by any means play in the upper areas of the leagues etc however, I can't help feeling that...

Designer cheats aside (they will always be some with modded boards) - which have to be dealt with seperately due to their more complex nature as pointed out by Manike.

But with regards to trigger bounce...

NPPL/Millennium/Whoever - just make a decision 'This is the friggin line we have decided' - the End. Enforce the line with no exceptions (and appropriate harsh discipline for offenders), problem of trigger bounce goes. People only take the piss if they can.

ascutt earlier mentioned that someone could be on hand before the tournament kicks off where people can take there marker to be ok'd by an official before any games start (and reduce the risk of penalty points/banning). You can't say fairer than that, if a player/team choose not to get their marker ok'd - tough friggin ****, if it bounces your team if heading home early.

What the NPPL have just decided with padded tops is a classic example (not that I agree but that's a different matter). It's their league, they have made the rule, that is it. As long as it is enforced what else are players going to do? Don't like, don't play it...

Too many chiefs, not enough Indians...

 

[noop]

Nick,

The simple fact is that I could take your so-called "finely tuned, semi-automatic" gun, and in a few seconds, have it firing continuously.

The catch? My finger wouldn't even have to be on the trigger.

Because, as you said sir, the recoil of the firing cycle is all that is needed to activate the switch.

I know there is some silly semi-automatic rule somewhere, something about extertion of force by the finger on the trigger, and releasing it or something, for like every firing cycle, or something to that effect.

Originally posted by Robbo
Having light and short triggers is bad but where do we draw the line in terms of what is acceptable in lightness and shortness?
And even worse, enforcement is even trickier

Mr. Roboto?

 

[manike]

Having read all this.....

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
.....I see only one solution:

- Cap the ROF -

ROF will be relatively easy to monitor.... during games also.

Why would that be a solution? and how would you monitor it? and how would you set the values? time between two shots? or over a string? how would you remove background noise and still do the measuring in real time?

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Cap the ROF at for instance 15/sec, and we will render all cheat modes inconsequencial, as long as we have a good device in place to monitor ROF during games.

That wouldn't render any cheat mode inconsequential. Most people can't hit 15 consistently without 'assistance'. You would just have a playing field fairly equal where everyone is at 15. You would see a lot more paint in the air that's for sure, as everyone would be cheating upto 15bps.

Most of those strings I was shooting in the Millennium last year with my timmy were about 15-17bps (you can't believe the lieing WAS board). So now it would be a level playing field, but not fair, and not based on skill.

If you want to stop the cheats, stop them, don't just let everyone do it?

 

[manike]

Firstly nothing I ever post on the net is in an official capacity. As per my sig it's just my opinions and thoughts.

Originally posted by Intheno
Manike, so you work for NPS Texas. NPS teams (specifically Miami and Oakland) are the ones mainly accused of having ramping dwell, which is the worst and most dangerous cheat there is. Goggle manufacturers are pooing themselves about it.

The excuse for this is that they need to ramp the dwell on their guns because of the drain on the solonoid during rapid fire, and as the 9v power drops below the power required by the solonoid, effecting the velocity.
The cheat here is that at full battery power the dwell still ramps, and that is where the crazy velocities come from.
Tell me I am wrong....

You are saying some great stuff on this forum, and making all the right noises. But are you saying you are unaware of this ramping dwell issue? How can a little guy like me know this and a guy in your position not know it. I don't understand.

I'm very aware of this issue, and you are very wrong.

It stems from Jim Drew (if you haven't noticed I'm not a fan of his) when he first started making WAS boards making up some rubbish saying the power supply was fading out so he needed to ramp the dwell to compensate velocity. Back then I was one of the vocal people who argued with him how stupid that was and why not to do it due to concerns of velocities going higher as rof increased. In the end he conceded and didn't do it but that's where the rumour got started.

In reality having a higher dwell is the worst thing for what players want right now.

All the timmy techs I know, and I especially, work my arse off to get guns to run with a lower dwell.

Why?

Because dwell is directly related to rof. And right now the biggest advantage by FAR comes from higher rates of fire.

If you listen to a quick timmy, and lets face it all of Miami and Oaklands guns are quick, then there is no way it is running a higher dwell because that pretty much kills the speed of the gun. The difference 1 or 2 ms per shot makes when you start factoring in pneumatics lag is huge.

Some guys even run lower dwells which makes the gun less consistent (and thus less accurate) in search of higher rof. Velocity and range and accuracy aren't quite so important on the X-ball field because it's so small and so close. And anyway there are other reasons why they don't need to ramp velocity, but that's a different issue for a different day.

The rumour of ramping dwells is complete and utter fabrication from what I have been able to find, and how I set up guns.

I haven't really tested it that much, but I know one of the techs tested it a lot and didn't find a substantial velocity increase that was even worth considering in the trade of against rof.


And I'll take this one seperately.

Originally posted by Intheno
Goggle manufacturers are pooing themselves about it.

BULL****. Who's pooing themselves about it? I don't believe you.

Having tested goggles I'm not concerned in the slightest about higher rof or velocities going through lenses. There are bigger concerns about them getting nocked off maybe, but you need to really work to get that, and at any point if you have to pod up (as I did) then I consider you've probably over gone the boundaries and are heading into assault on what you are shooting at.

Oh and considering the links between paint manufacturers and goggle makers, there are far BIGGER concerns they should look at before giving any weight to this as a concern. They know what I mean, but it's one of those things I am not going to spell out.

You're very good at finding urban myths. Sorry to bust them.

 

[Gadget]

Originally posted by manike
In all honesty, I think the higher rof in the NXL and people getting shot up IS better visually and for the spectators. There is a huge 'blood lust' over here which that satisfies. Having watched more and more sport in the USA it appears that is what the audiences here want... far more than fair play maybe?

That just opens up another huge can of worms that I think was in a thread a few months ago......how far are we willing to go in order to give paintball a mass market appeal?

Should be *******ise the game we play just to get on TV? Or should we reject any suggestions that would impair gameplay, regardless of any negative impact on the sport's saleability?

 

[TJ Lambini]

You say *******ize, I say evolve - full-auto baby! NXL, lead tha way - you know you want it.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Gadget
That just opens up another huge can of worms that I think was in a thread a few months ago......how far are we willing to go in order to give paintball a mass market appeal?

Should be *******ise the game we play just to get on TV? Or should we reject any suggestions that would impair gameplay, regardless of any negative impact on the sport's saleability?

Let's take that to another thread huh? Enough going on in this one already...

 

[Gadget]

Oi, get back under your bridge Lambini!

Originally posted by manike
Let's take that to another thread huh? Enough going on in this one already...

Fair point....dang, just as I was stoking up some righteous anger too!

{runs into thread arms windmilling} Ooooo wants some eh?

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Gadget
I would argue that having a 'well' setup semi trigger as defined by Nick is actually more dangerous than having a proper full-auto marker with a heavier/longer trigger pull. The FA marker is less likely to fire unexpectedly than the 'semi' is.

I would agree.

I think one test we should have, which is easy and can be performed at home or anywhere, is to take your gun, point it barrel up and drop it tank first 6" onto a mousemat on a table.

It shouldn't fire. If it does the trigger is too light and too sensitive in my opinion.

Easy test for the player and judges to do.

Repeat it 3 times. If it fires any time it fails.

It's far easier to do something like that than try and set a minimum pull weight and length.

 

[manike]

Capping the rof would not stop the incentive to cheat. People would still want to be able to get that speed as easy as possible.

It would stop the incentive if it was so low as to be very easy for everyone to get. Say 8bps...

Not a fan of capping rof. You are limiting the need for people to develop skills, and rewarding those with less skills, I don't like that.

I think you just need to work on catching people that cheat the current rules rather than trying to give them new ones to cheat.

As for simple to make such a device to fit and measure all guns and that isn't disabled quickly and easily by a broken ball... ok, I look forward to testing the one you come up with.

I don't think it will be that simple. And I still bet there would be ways around it.