Thread re gun bounce

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by manike
...no hope of detecting switchable cheats. Only highly observant judges (and video maybe?) will do that.

...I think such a robot would catch maybe 85% of the illegal stuff that I know about. The reason people changed out the cheater boards they had for HB is very simply because the robot would have caught them.

...much of the switching methods can be detected if you scrutinize players and the equipment you are concerned about.

...Back to the video point, I think it's a great way to catch the harder to spot cheats.

I saw some great video footage of a cheat, and under video analysis it became very obvious even though while watching him cheat his arse off it was quite difficult to tell.

HMMM? Video cameras, not such a bad idea. Scrutineer available in advance. Scrutineers disguised as regular field judges. Clearcut penalties. Exactly the same for all. Robots too. Players accept their responsibility. Sorted!

Steve

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by manike
Yes very true Pete. It has no hope of detecting switchable cheats. Only highly observant judges (and video maybe?) will do that.

There were accusations of some companies making boards that automatically, and as stock (on sale to everyone), ramped the gun. That it would catch.

Also the majority of cheater boards that I have come across with programmed software cheats actually do it 'all the time' as a standard and don't require 'activation'. I guess because there was no-way to catch them before? Certainly I think such a robot would catch maybe 85% of the illegal stuff that I know about. The reason people changed out the cheater boards they had for HB is very simply because the robot would have caught them.

Most current 'illegal' boards that I know of, and granted I don't know everything that is going on by any means (not even close), don't have 'turn on and turn off modes' they just enhance what is happening at set levels of rof or under certain circumstances.

That said, I doubt it will be long due to the new tests before the cheats advance themselves further, but I think much of the switching methods can be detected if you scrutinize players and the equipment you are concerned about.

Let's be honest under the heat of playing, anything that makes it too hard to switch into 'cheater' mode isn't going to be too helpful. Standard 'always active' cheats have been far more common, a greater advantage, and previously undetectable.

Back to the video point, I think it's a great way to catch the harder to spot cheats.

I saw some great video footage of a cheat, and under video analysis it became very obvious even though while watching him cheat his arse off it was quite difficult to tell.

Si, I know a little about electronics and programming and from what I know, it would be very easy to have a sequence imitated 'cheat' mode which would be reset if the marker is switched off or hasn't been shot for x seconds or a trigger held in for 3 seconds plus and so on.
All these would innocuous actions and not immediately detectable as switching a cheat mode off.
My point being, that to initiate this cheat mode is relatively easy before the game and even easier to disable if the gun is selected for testing.

It just remains to predict the likelihood of some manufacturers or some individuals connected with teams (with collusion from manufacturers) to produce such a board.
If as you say, cheating boards have already been produced on the basis of them not previously being able to be detected, then it takes no great stretch of the imagination to realise these same manufacturers wouldn't bat an eyelid in producing switchable cheat modes for their associated pro teams.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Robbo
Si, I know a little about electronics and programming and from what I know, it would be very easy to have a sequence imitated 'cheat' mode which would be reset if the marker is switched off or hasn't been shot for x seconds or a trigger held in for 3 seconds plus and so on.
All these would innocuous actions and not immediately detectable as switching a cheat mode off.
My point being, that to initiate this cheat mode is relatively easy before the game and even easier to disable if the gun is selected for testing.

Yes it's possible. Very . I do look for people doing 'strange' sequences with their guns. And the 10 second check is also a good way to catch this sort of thing where a cheat is set to work for just the first minute after a gun is turned on.

ANYTHING is possible with electronics. It became possible the moment electronic guns became available. The joke about having someone control it from the sideline isn't that far fetched... (i'll start work on it right away )

You already have gun software doing different things depending on how long it has sat between shots! (anti bolt stick software!!!) it wouldn't be hard to take it a stage further, or believe it has already been taken a stage further to be timed to correspond to certain events (turning your gun on, maintaining a string etc).

I don't believe designer cheats are as widespread yet as many people do though, and I don't think it is as sophisticated yet as many do.

Let's be honest, I know people that have and do cheat, or want to, with gun software. It's amazing how many people have asked me for it since I started my current role. What was also suprising is how many people don't have it (when the general public thought they did) but do want it.

I've learnt a lot on the last 4 months about who has what and before I thought more people had designer gun cheats than I now know have them. Lots of people I thought were guilty, it turns out are innocent. (of that anyway...)

Originally posted by Robbo
It just remains to predict the likelihood of some manufacturers or some individuals connected with teams (with collusion from manufacturers) to produce such a board.
If as you say, cheating boards have already been produced on the basis of them not previously being able to be detected, then it takes no great stretch of the imagination to realise these same manufacturers wouldn't bat an eyelid in producing switchable cheat modes for their associated pro teams.

True, but such information and boards do get out.

It does happen and it will always happen, especially considering the ethics of some people in the industry. But I know it's not as common as many want you to believe it is.

I think you would be suprised at how many pro players and teams you think have special software don't actually. Many of them rely on much more conventional cheats with what are to all intents and purposes normally legal boards. (things like adjusting the debounce, failing eyes, or having multi position switches etc.)

And yes as the methods to detect cheats get better, the cheats will get more sophisticated. Isn't that always the way? Criminals are always one step ahead of enforcement.

Maybe the whole reason sophisticated designer cheats aren't so common (in my opinion) yet is because they never needed to be. People could and do get away with simpler cheats.

One curious thing to think about is how many top pro teams are directly, and I mean directly linked to the people who have the power and means to mess with the software? In my experience it's only the very closely linked teams who would be able to get 'special stuff' most manufacturers would be too nervous of it getting out otherwise.

I truely believe the vast majority of gun cheats do it off their own backs with what would be legal boards if the gits using them weren't cheats in the first place.

 

[Robbo]

The problem is Si, this isn't exactly an area ripe for disclosure.
It's very nature is discrete and therefore extremely hard to quantify but I will say this much, if we ignore the conjecture, if we even ignore what we have heard (and believe me, I have heard much) and get our asses over to any NXL tournament and go watch and listen, either the players in the NXL have all developed epilepsy of the fingers or they are using markers that fire more than one shot per finger pull.......

All the bull in the world, all the denials in the world, all the spin in the world cannot fool you that much when you go see for yourself, can it?......I mean, just ask Rodney King

 

[manike]

ahh, my bad, didn't realise we were talking NXL... I consider them a law unto themselves and in their own little world.

Whole different kettle of fish.

Err... No comment.

 

[manike]

I miss our chats Pete, call me some time. NPS Texas.

 

[noop]

Having read all this.....

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
On another issue..... people keep referring to trigger bounce like it was full auto, which it isn't.... because it still needs the player to activate the trigger once per shot fired

Um...no. The point of trigger bounce is that it does NOT require the player to activate the trigger once per shot fired. Yes, a bouncing gun is not truly fully-automatic, but it is not truly semi-automatic either.

If you do not believe, ask das Wunderkind.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by manike
ahh, my bad, didn't realise we were talking NXL... I consider them a law unto themselves and in their own little world.

Whole different kettle of fish.

Err... No comment.

Not your bad at all Si, it's just that whatever happens in the land of the NXL will eventually leech into the very fabric of tourney ball elsewhere and infect us all leastwise all those with a propensity to designer cheat.

The problem arises for me when I try to get Nexus to one of the final four places in the EXL so we can qualify for the finals in Orlando just so's we can be faced with playing NXL teams......well, I'm sure you know what I am talking about.
It makes a mockery of everything and knocks the bollocks out of any coach and / or team who want to succeed through hard work and skill.
Does it really come down to , 'if you can't beat them, join them' ?
If it does mate, then I'm gonna buy myself a pipe and slippers and put me feet up because my time is done.

But then again, if everybody cheats, doesn't this then reintroduce even competition?
Theoretically yes it does but the idea of it leaves a nasty taste in my mouth and as soon as the blind eye is turned toward ROF cheats, how long before some of those same people and teams turn their attention toward increasing velocity, designer style ?

As you well know Si, this is already happening on some markers.....

Hmmmmmmm...

 

[Sven]

well said, nick.. 100% agree

 

[Intheno]

Manike, so you work for NPS Texas. NPS teams (specifically Miami and Oakland) are the ones mainly accused of having ramping dwell, which is the worst and most dangerous cheat there is. Goggle manufacturers are pooing themselves about it.

The excuse for this is that they need to ramp the dwell on their guns because of the drain on the solonoid during rapid fire, and as the 9v power drops below the power required by the solonoid, effecting the velocity.
The cheat here is that at full battery power the dwell still ramps, and that is where the crazy velocities come from.
Tell me I am wrong....

You are saying some great stuff on this forum, and making all the right noises. But are you saying you are unaware of this ramping dwell issue? How can a little guy like me know this and a guy in your position not know it. I don't understand.

Oh, and whoever said capping the rate of fire was the way to go - come on! I mean really....