Thread re gun bounce

[Intheno]

and Steve Morris...

You don't need help, you don't need advice, you don't need new rules.
You just need to enforce the existing rules properly, without exception or compromise. Do this for 2 events and watch these problems disappear. Players will only push the rules for as long as they think they can. If they learn that the rules will be enforced then they will adhere to them.

No 'get out of jail' notes from sponsors
No 'thats not how we do it in the states' conversations (europe has actual laws that prohibit these cheating modes - especially Germany)

Steve, basically you are going to have to break some eggs. This is something you seem unwilling to do. You can't do your job and be liked by everybody. You can be respected though, but not by coming here and asking for a load of new rules, which you can then hide behind by saying;
'...well you guys agreed on the forums...'

People are going to call you a Muthaxxxxx, but they will be the xxxx's, not you!

Toughen Up!!
You did not do Dynasty any favors at the weekend. It sounds like a PR disaster for them, and they still have to go face thier sponsors (Smart Parts must be SO proud of them)

 

[Steve Morris]

Originally posted by Intheno
and Steve Morris...

You don't need help, you don't need advice, you don't need new rules.

Disagree. We are going to sort out and solidify on some vague points in the rules and TRY to come up with some reasonable procedures for the next tournament. At that tournament we will have no excuses and the teams won't either.

Originally posted by Intheno
You just need to enforce the existing rules properly, without exception or compromise. Do this for 2 events and watch these problems disappear. Players will only push the rules for as long as they think they can. If they learn that the rules will be enforced then they will adhere to them.

I agree. And one thing I'm certain about despite our teething problems: the teams started tightening up on their adjustments regarding legality. Ask Ed Poorman, Rich Telford, Nathan Greenman and whoever else you want. Maybe they didn't tighten up enough...

Originally posted by Intheno
No 'get out of jail' notes from sponsors
No 'thats not how we do it in the states' conversations (europe has actual laws that prohibit these cheating modes - especially Germany)

There was no such note. That is one of those tourney myths like the vicious rumor that Millennium only had four of their guns checked instead of all seven and that one of them was almost bouncing full-auto. Never even heard "that's how it's done in the States." Everybody knows that guns tend to be way out of control in the states and that there were gross inadequacies with the robot at HB. For those that care, like NPPL and Millennium, for example, we will put a major dent in the cheating one way or the other.

Originally posted by Intheno
Steve, basically you are going to have to break some eggs. This is something you seem unwilling to do. You can't do your job and be liked by everybody.

But I still want to be liked by you.I agree with the breaking of eggs, disagree with the willingness thing. If you had been there on the scene in all the situations you would see that I did show that willingness. Tontons had a player banned and game forfeited. Dynasty had a game forfeited.

Originally posted by Intheno You can be respected though, but not by coming here and asking for a load of new rules, which you can then hide behind by saying;
'...well you guys agreed on the forums...'

People are going to call you a Muthaxxxxx, but they will be the xxxx's, not you!

Toughen Up!!
You did not do Dynasty any favors at the weekend. It sounds like a PR disaster for them, and they still have to go face thier sponsors (Smart Parts must be SO proud of them)

I didn't do anyone any favors nor did we pick on any team or teams. We listen to advice and suggestions. We will collect data and then improve our rules and procedures, not use any lame excuses about what some people here agree to.

I agree that in spite of much progress with our reffing system we encountered teething problems. I have to accept blame and responsibility for that because I was in charge of it.

Steve

 

[Intheno]

Thanks for answering Steve,

By the way, I was not throwing accusations at you, I do not think you are crooked, at all.

You try hard to please everyone, but surely you realise that this is not possible. If you take a game off a team, and then they come back with the same problem/issue, you have to take another game off them, end of story, or there is no consistancy. Without consistancy you have no rules, because you are creating dangerous precedents.

I am prepared to bet all my cash (not actually a whole lot by the way) on you getting pro teams at the next event that will quote Dynasty's 45 minute (30, whatever) delay, and the fact that they and Arsenal (can't take that name seriously yet) were allowed to play with bouncing guns because the teams agreed between themselves. You have also made the life of a chrono judge a whole lot harder.

You have made a rod for your own back, and the next event will tell whether you can maintain control.
I think you will have to throw at least one pro team out if you are going to enforce the rules, and I think you will be tempted to ammend the rules so that this does not happen, which would be disastrousder and more daunting.

I wouldn't swap with you Steve, I hope you make us all proud

 

[Steve Morris]

Originally posted by Intheno
Thanks for answering Steve,

By the way, I was not throwing accusations at you, I do not think you are crooked, at all.

You try hard to please everyone, but surely you realise that this is not possible. If you take a game off a team, and then they come back with the same problem/issue, you have to take another game off them, end of story, or there is no consistancy. Without consistancy you have no rules, because you are creating dangerous precedents.

I am prepared to bet all my cash (not actually a whole lot by the way) on you getting pro teams at the next event that will quote Dynasty's 45 minute (30, whatever) delay, and the fact that they and Arsenal (can't take that name seriously yet) were allowed to play with bouncing guns because the teams agreed between themselves. You have also made the life of a chrono judge a whole lot har

You have made a rod for your own back, and the next event will tell whether you can maintain control.
I think you will have to throw at least one pro team out if you are going to enforce the rules, and I think you will be tempted to ammend the rules so that this does not happen, which would be disastrousder and more daunting.

I wouldn't swap with you Steve, I hope you make us all proud

I agree generally with your points. We WILL come up with some system however imperfect it may be and we WILL follow it totally consistently and let the chips fall where they may.

If ANY player can't get their gun to conform to our rules and tests before taking the field within the time constraints that will be clearly defined, that gun will be left out of the game. If ANY player is caught with an illegal gun during the game that player will be suspended and that game will be forfeited 0 - 100. PERIOD - FULL STOP- END OF DISCUSSION. All of this assuming the rules will continue roughly as they are concerning the above-mentioned points and we get rid of any ambiguity about "ill intent" etc.

Then there is the question of scrutiny procedures that we have to solve and get clear before Paris.

We have our work cut out for us.

Steve

 

[Felix]

can i come back for the next event to check the guns .....

in this case there will be more then one 100-0... trust me

 

[Steve Hancock]

What is the rule with bounce detection? Is it like chronoing, three shots - if any are over 300 then it's hot. Or can you give it as many trys as you like?

 

[Burb]

Originally posted by Steve Hancock
What is the rule with bounce detection? Is it like chronoing, three shots - if any are over 300 then it's hot. Or can you give it as many trys as you like?

As many trys as you like I assume. If the markers have 'true' cheater boards they may only go full auto after 'X' amount of trigger pulls.

 

[Intheno]

Burb is spot-on. Whatever the official rule is, that is where the cheats start.

 

[ascutt]

OK,

I am happy to start the ball rolling with a couple of suggestions that I have been bouncing (excuse the pun) off people today.

1. The Millennium appoints a scrutineer who would be available on the day before the tournament to test players guns for bounce. The same as going to the set-up chronograph, you just go and visit this guy and he tells you whether you pass or fail the bouce rules. He should also continue to be available during the tournament to provide the same testing facility.

2. The two teams that arrive at a field to play are held at the entrance to the chronostation until both sets of players are there. Once all 14 players are there the two teams are given 10 minutes maximum to clear the chronograph and any bounce tests that are to be applied. Once to 10 minute period is up players have to go with what they have, if the gun is over the chrono they go without a gun. If they can not resolve the bounce problem they go without a gun.

3. One of the judges from each field will be designated as the chrono judge and he/she will meet with the scrutineer who will define to them the exact tests they must perform when checking gun to provide a standard across all field. Only this person will check guns on thier field. Any guns that are tested in the 10sec guns down routine, or at the request of any field judge during or after a game, and found to be bouncing by the designated judge will result in a 100-0 score and ban as laid down in the rules we have.

Hows that for starters?

 

[Red_Merkin]

as long as the rules are clear, and adheared to, i have no problems.

The message has to be sent out; no bouncing guns. If your gun bounces, you did the crime, you do the time (and take the penalty like a man).
The message needs to be 'cheaters will be prosecuted, if you plan to cheat, just stay home'.

As long as the procedure is done the same on every field, as a player i have no problem. What frustrates me (again as a player) is when the rules are enforced differently from 1 field to the next.