Thread re gun bounce

[manike]

Originally posted by Red_Merkin
as long as the rules are clear, and adheared to, i have no problems.

The message has to be sent out; no bouncing guns. If your gun bounces, you did the crime, you do the time (and take the penalty like a man).
The message needs to be 'cheaters will be prosecuted, if you plan to cheat, just stay home'.

As long as the procedure is done the same on every field, as a player i have no problem. What frustrates me (again as a player) is when the rules are enforced differently from 1 field to the next.

I agree in essence.

But am also so certain you are really only going to catch and penalise the innocent mainly.

There are valid issues where guns have problems one moment but not previously, is it right to ban someone under those circumstances? Some guns do come as standard and are more likely to bounce than others of the same make and model.

I'm also finding some interesting issues where vibration of a gun looks like it is starting to induce SHM in the switches and triggers! How would we ever stop that from giving you extra shots?

I can get a huge number of guns to bounce that others can't. But I nor the players would really shoot them that way in use and so is it a valid thing to ban someone for that? Maybe get them to change it yes, but not a ban. Ban's should be for guns that people can get to do silly things IN A PLAYING SITUATION. Big difference in my opinion.

I agree totally with a ban for someone setting it up on purpose, but just feel we are in this for fun and it's harsh for someone falling foul more innocently.

I still say the people really worth banning, and that should be banned, are the ones you are VERY unlikely to catch.

I also think 'subjective' testing to decide what is and is not ramping etc. Is bollox. You need to have a more scientific set up and method, but again that will only catch 'standard' cheats. Not any of the clever stuff. The new clever electronic guns which realy do make an interaction between the loader and the gun can make guns seem to ramp, when they aren't doing anything illegal.

But then some people could also use that as an 'excuse' to hide naughtiness.

Vicious circle. Not easy to fix. The more I look into it the more issues there are to deal with and the harder it seems to come.

 

[shamu]

Originally posted by Felix
can i come back for the next event to check the guns .....

in this case there will be more then one 100-0... trust me

Hey Steve -

Can I have him on my field? Please, please, please... you know I'll have some fun with the bouncy guns

 

[Red_Merkin]

manike
you hit the nail on the head.
trigger bounce testing as outlined by scutty's method is subject to subjectivity.

We definatly need a mechancial device that can measure trigger bounce and use that in conjunction with a chrono graph.


scutty;
what this won't catch is ramping rof (or velociy) and designer cheats (modes triggered by switches)

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Red_Merkin
what this won't catch is ramping rof (or velociy) and

It will if that cheat is a 'standard cheat' i.e. the gun always does it and it's not switched.

Originally posted by Red_Merkin
and designer cheats (modes triggered by switches)

Correct it won't. But you will be hard pressed to ever catch these, and to be honest these kinds of things being switched by the software are far rarer than people think.

Hidden switches and mechanical means of changing the settings are more common, and could be caught by checking a suspicious gun. You just need someone technical who knows what to look for and check, and a little time with the gun and a set of allen wrenches.

 

[Red_Merkin]

It will if that cheat is a 'standard cheat' i.e. the gun always does it and it's not switched.

the one we've seen is where the gun ramps once you go over a certain rate of fire.
so i guess some one could check that by ripping a string and seeing if they notice it ramp.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Red_Merkin
the one we've seen is where the gun ramps once you go over a certain rate of fire.
so i guess some one could check that by ripping a string and seeing if they notice it ramp.

That's the kind of thing you HAVE to check with the robot.

A subjective test won't be correct or fair.

Evolution 2 and Halo loaders ramp the feed rate as they detect balls going passed the sensor faster.

This means as you shoot a string with one of these loaders you will be able to sense the rof ramping up as you shoot a string.

This is normal and perfectly legal. But when a 'human' shoots it, they may feel it is ramping illegally when it is not.

If you are going to test for ramping via cheater software, you have to do it with the robot.

The robot does catch this. We tested it.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by manike
If you are going to test for ramping via cheater software, you have to do it with the robot.

The robot does catch this. We tested it.

Si, correct me if I'm wrong, (I have seen the robot and know its working paramaters) but the robot will only detect a ramping gun if the cheating software is activated ?

 

[sjt19]

I can see it now:

Scrutineer- "Excuse me player, would you mind activating the ramping cheat on your gun so that i can test it over the robot, catch your gun ramping and ban you?"

Player- "Of course Mr Scrutineer......hang on.....there you go....."

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Robbo
Si, correct me if I'm wrong, (I have seen the robot and know its working paramaters) but the robot will only detect a ramping gun if the cheating software is activated ?

Yes very true Pete. It has no hope of detecting switchable cheats. Only highly observant judges (and video maybe?) will do that.

There were accusations of some companies making boards that automatically, and as stock (on sale to everyone), ramped the gun. That it would catch.

Also the majority of cheater boards that I have come across with programmed software cheats actually do it 'all the time' as a standard and don't require 'activation'. I guess because there was no-way to catch them before? Certainly I think such a robot would catch maybe 85% of the illegal stuff that I know about. The reason people changed out the cheater boards they had for HB is very simply because the robot would have caught them.

Most current 'illegal' boards that I know of, and granted I don't know everything that is going on by any means (not even close), don't have 'turn on and turn off modes' they just enhance what is happening at set levels of rof or under certain circumstances.

That said, I doubt it will be long due to the new tests before the cheats advance themselves further, but I think much of the switching methods can be detected if you scrutinize players and the equipment you are concerned about.

Let's be honest under the heat of playing, anything that makes it too hard to switch into 'cheater' mode isn't going to be too helpful. Standard 'always active' cheats have been far more common, a greater advantage, and previously undetectable.

Back to the video point, I think it's a great way to catch the harder to spot cheats.

I saw some great video footage of a cheat, and under video analysis it became very obvious even though while watching him cheat his arse off it was quite difficult to tell.

 

[noop]

Like das Wunderkind said, and it seems to be a very reasonable number, 80% of tournament guns exhibit bounce. The majority of which is the result of having too weak of a trigger return, too short a pull, or the combination of both.

I guess the only question is, how far does everyone want to go with this? Are tournament organizes willing to make 80% of the players readjust their triggers in advance, so there can be no excuses on game day? Sounds expensive.

Though I suppose the 'cheater board and switch' guns would stand out a lot more.