This Millennium 15BPS rule...

[Buddha 3]

Originally posted by Baca Loco
I think there are reasons to disagree with that assesment, so I will.
PB is a divided market and the part of the market that purchases these sorts of markers is top-driven. Peeps want stuff that high profile ballers use.
In the local rec scene there is crossover of tourney oriented or driven products with rec players but most would fall into the tourney wannabe players category as opposed to the purely scenario/woods type rec player. (The tourney wannabe player isn't necessarily a future tourney player but takes their cues from the tourney side of PB and prefer to play Airball to woods ball.)
Second, the current levels of firepower are creating, if not as a matter of policy, at least in practice, a segregated playing environment different from the typical rec vs. tourney situation. Lots of commercial fields go to greater lengths to separate rec players from walk-ons from tourney or tourney wannabe players than they used to and it isn't about inclination or level of experience, but equipment. (Back in the day the only divider was experience, and even then, it wasn't uniformly enforced all the time everywhere you played.)
The weekend before last I played a bit at my local field and, except for the shot to shot consistency, there was no substantial difference between my capped F/A gun and the rest of the guns in use by 50-60 other players the majority of whom were teenagers and mostly low level tourney players at best. There were otherwise about a 100 rec or walk-on players present as well. This is commonplace and poses problems for field owners who are even less capable of regulating the guns used by a percentage of their customers than the big tournies are.
If and when the pressure from the top doesn't glamorize speed at any cost and local field refs have a reasonably inexpensive tool to control bps I fully expect it to become the standard almost everywhere.
That's my prediction and I'm sticking to it.

Fair points to you sir.

 

[Baca Loco]

Yer mama wears army boots

Originally posted by Buddha 3
Fair points to you sir.

Dammit, Jay, I was spoilin' for a knock down drag out brawl.

 

[Buddha 3]

Army boots? Only on field maneuvres...

Originally posted by Baca Loco
Dammit, Jay, I was spoilin' for a knock down drag out brawl.

And I didn't give you one. I win!

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Hold on a minute Steve !!!!

1. 15 BPS cap enforced by ball-counting instrument (specifically: no consecutive shots where the elapsed time between shots exceeds a rate-of-fire of 15.4 BPS = 65ms between shots)

3. No stored shots (never more than one shot within 150ms of trigger release)

This is absolutely contrary to what we discussed and agreed upon on the swedish forum!

Jay hit the nail on the head.

If you incorporate this rule, by saying that no two shots may be spaced shorter than 65ms and storing trigger pulls is illegal, what you get is something that will land the MS in an even more ridiculous situation than last year.

Using myself as an example (and that will be fairly indicative of most players on the cirquit) - on a good day, I'm personally able to hit 13 BPS..... but as I am not a robot, I'm sure that a good deal of those trigger pulls happen in a fairly erradic nature, which under your rule mans I need a board that ensures triggerpulls spaced by less than 65ms has to be ignored (or I will be the reason for my team being penalised).

That in turn means, that my effective ROF will drop to something like 8 to 10 BPS.

Alternatively - I will continue with my standard board (like most players will) - and HOPE I never chance to space two shots shorter than 65ms when measured...... and as we saw last year, players "hoping" for that, invariably get caught, without any intent to cheat... they just get unlucky.

So - all paintball players have to invest in new boards, and get used to shooting 8-10 BPS - or get caught as "cheaters" ?????

That's just plain stupid !

If you want to introduce a 15 BPS limit (which I agree with), the only reasonable way to do it, is to measure the number of shots per second (that is what the rule governs) - not the time between two shots.

The reason so many players out there THINK they can shoot 17-18-19 BPS, is that a number of guns and chronograps, are wired to indicate the shortest time between two shots, and then multibply to indicate BPS...... but the truth is that very few players can effectively shoot 15 BPS.

Actually - under the rules you propose, a player can shoot only TWO shots during an entire game - and still get banned under the "15 BPS rule"!!!

If you want a limit of 15 BPS - make it so... don't go advocating rules that say "you can't pull your trigger more often than every 65ms" (which is humanly impossible to ensure) - and will effectively put most of the players in 8-10 BPS "land".

Nick

 

[Chicago]

From what I've been told, the dwell/refresh settings for the majority of existing boards can be set so as to limit the time between shots to 65 ms.

 

[Nick Brockdorff]

Well....

From what I've been told, the dwell/refresh settings for the majority of existing boards can be set so as to limit the time between shots to 65 ms

That may be true for some of the boards..... and on some it can be done effortlessly without negative effects to the players ROF - on others it will have the effects I describe.

- don't even get me started on the effects in division 2 and 3, where some players are lucky to have the right gun, and others are fcuked, and have to buy are new one - or at least a new board - to comply with a rule that is good in intention, but enforced in an inane way.

Obviously I could choose not to care..... whatever happens, teams at my level will be taken care of by our sponsors..... but I think the MS would be well advised, to think a little about the effects in the lower divisions.

But that is all really besides the point I'm trying to make, which is that if the rule is "max 15 BPS" - the testing method should measure the number of shots per second - not time between two shots.

If you shoot 14 BPS - it shouldn't matter how they are spaced.

Otherwise, it would be like setting a speedlimit for cars - and then enforcing it by measuring RPMs (yeah - not a perfect example - I know.... but let's pretend all cars only have one gear ).

I want the testing methods and enforcement of the rule to actually have correlation with the rule.

Nick

 

[Chicago]

So, uh, pull the trigger 4 times, and then 15 balls come out in a quarter second, then another 15 balls come out a second later, that'd be ok?

Maybe 'ok', but not safe.

If it bothers you that much, I'm sure they could just write "You may not fire more than 1 shot within 65 milliseconds" and not say 15 bps at all.

 

[Wadidiz]

Nick and some others may think that the suggestions I've posted here are the Millennium rules. Let me make it perfectly clear: what I posted are suggestions for the sake of discussion on this forum. I have no idea if Mill will adopt any of these suggestions. And, again, I may not work for Millennium this year; don't know yet.

While we're at it much of what I've suggested is copied straight from the proposed PSP rules. It also comes from much discussion with people who know far more than I, especially Simon Stevens (not that he should be blamed for anything stupid in my suggestions).

At the moment there are at least four parallel threads going in various places about this. You might want to check out the PbNation thread about PSP's proposals: http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=815997&perpage=21&highlight=&pagenumber=1.

There are many pages to that thread but several players say they have already adjusted their guns to the new proposed rules, have practiced with them and find things to be quite playable.

 

[Crpstack]

Thats marvellous Steve but I see 2 minor slipups that should be redeemed..

1, "Gogge makers want 15 bps as they think their stuff cant take 20"

Welp its time to pour money into R&D then they have been selling the same deigns since years by now! Welcome to tourny paintball!!! If they say this now then that means we were in constant danger for like 3-4 years? I surely can come to that conclusion as this "reason" is what they call "Flaming Bullpoo" in Texas...

2, As Nick this time again proved by his example (I love myself too man ) This is again a half assed rule taken into effect just to do something without really thinking through the consequences. This means that close to every damn team who plays at the mill will have to get a board update wich limits their 2X+bps capable gun to oldschool cocker speed. The logistics of that will be considerable and people who arent that informed like us and just show up on a Mill will be dumbstruck by it.
On top of that it will negatively effect each and every sponsor of the circuit as they lose one BIG selling point of their guns (speed). Paint companies will be also happy as Mill first axed Xball and then put 15 bps as max wich will definitely will put a dent int their sales figures.

So way to go Mill this will be the "Year of the Innovation" meaning : Less games less tournaments no Xball and the 15bps rule. If that is "Innovation" I wanna be back into the dark ages of 2004 please..


Peace

 

[Patrik/Evolution]

The only way you can monitor markers in an unbiased way is by controlling ROF. With programmable boards etc there is no other way that markers can be monitored in a clear cut way (=>same for everybody).

Nick think about it. OK its true in the perfect world you should take the average of every second. But that would be quite complex because I think that there are no devices that would measure ROF/second (know you can measure ROF with time in betweeen each shot) in a easy, cheap and efficint way on a playing field. (there might be but at least i havent heard of them)

Making the timing very clear and transparent also makes adjusting for these new rules easy as well. Also it puts everybody at a level playing field.

For exmaple last year you had some teams getting their chips programmed to fit "THE rules" where other just decrease debounce or something. As a reslut you had markers that got out 30bps with out effort even thaugh they were in accordance with the "rules" in all "required" ways. Where as others were outgunned because they didnt have access to this type of trimming.

The time based rule is clear and good --> theres no room to wiggle around. So we dont end up in situations like we did last year where pro teams have "get out of jail free" letter from their "daddy" that say that they are playing with markers that might not work as the rules require because they havent been tested. Or magick finger judges like we had in germany before the finals games. Or "shooting robots" etc etc etc etc...

Paintballers for Clear Cut Rules (PCCR) ;-)
-Lets decrease the bitching and make transparent rules.
-Lets make rules that are fair
-LETS MAKE RULES THAT ARE SAFE!!!!