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This Millennium 15BPS rule...

Wadidiz

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Jul 9, 2002
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Originally posted by jotajotaZ
So we'd have rules but not enforce them? That's not a good idea, is it?

What do I as a player do? Stick to the rulebook or cheat "knowing" that the officers will not come after me?
I agree with you now that if we specify semiauto-only then it must be enforced. I'm just saying that we shouldn't specify semiauto-only after the third trigger activation because that cannot be enforced.

EDIT: I recognize that what I just wrote is a contradiction to my last post, which wasn't so well thought out. This is damned complicated.

Where is Manike when we need him?!
 

Nick Brockdorff

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Jul 9, 2001
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There is equipment that readily measures the time between two shots. The equipment does not readily measure the number of shots in any given second. You should write the rule to match the way you are able to enfroce it. Additionally, 15 bps in one second is a lot different than 15 bps in a half second and then a half second of nothing.

25 balls in one second is *ENTIRELY* different than 25 balls in two seconds from a goggle failure perspective. This goes back to the above, where 15 balls in once second is ok, but 15 balls in a half second followed by nothing is not.
QUOTE]

Dude - you crack me UP :D

So - you hook up a directional mic to a piece of equipment that is sophisticated enough to measure the number of milliseconds between two shots - but it is completely beyond the realm of possibility that the same sophisticated piece of equipment can count the number of milliseconds within a second????

Get real :D

I am yet to see anyone in an "official" capacity say that the goggle manufacturers has said 15 BPS is ok - but 16 is not.... I think it is a bogus rumour, that someone has put up to defend their position on this issue.

And, how would you know that 15 per half second is not ok ? - it's not that simply that 15 shots is the magic number, no matter over what period of time...... to my knowledge, most goggle manufacturers recommend lens replacement after receiving ONE hit - so I would be VERY surprised if a goggle manufacturer now suddenly said 15 hits were ok !

If the goggle manufacturers are REALLY at the root of this debate, let's get them to say officially what number of hits their lenses can take - and then make THAT the BPS limit (My guess is it would be ONE....... And I'll then dig out my trusty out Phantom Pump again)

Nick
 

USELESS

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Thanks for the equation help Nick easy when you know how eh!!:rolleyes:

Anyway my next question is then is it physically possible to have 15 paintballs leave the end of markers barrel in a second with out a enhanced mode of marker just true semi only????

Cos as i read it and im sure i will be corrected if i am wrong that all this about 15bps is taken on a average between 2 trigger pulls 66ms apart then obviously then i would think it would be nigh on impossible to achieve these rates of fire and like Nick said it aint gonna happen cos it impossible to do with a true semi marker .

So it just brings us back more to do we still measure the space between 2 trigger pulls and punish someone who hits that less than 66ms trigger pull just cos it was read between the two trigger pulls or punish the player that has more than 15 bps coming out of the end of the barrel in a second .

Then all we have to just catch the players with cheat boards and enhanced markers :confused:

Sod it im with you Nick now wheres me Sterling pump :rolleyes:
 

ClarisitaZ

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Apr 3, 2003
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Instant speed /= average speed.

When you are driving and the speed limit is x mph, its not the average what counts but the instant speed. A limit on the instant speed also guarantees the limit on average speed.

What is that rule looking for? Depending on that, they should choose instant or average and then find the right way to measure it.
 

Nick Brockdorff

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ClarisitaZ

Your example would be valid if we were talking FPS.

But, as we are talking balls PER second, it will always be the average that is interesting.

What would be the purpose of regulating the space between two shots, is NOT to regulate the average???

Nick
 

Furby

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Mar 28, 2002
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...

I think I'll leave this debate alone for the moment.

Oh what the hell...I've got a few minutes.

If I read the rules that the PSP posted up yesterday correctly, it in effect legalizes bounce, within limited parameters. This is the passage in question:

3.6. A marker may fire no more than three shots per press and release of the trigger, and no more than three shots between presses of the trigger. A player who carries a marker onto the field of play that fires more than three shots per press and release of the trigger, or more than three shots between two presses of the trigger, will receive a gross penalty and a minor suspension.
I'm guessing this is to give some leeway to players against the freak chrono/bounce refs who have a particular talent for making ANY marker bounce, despite efforts to the contrary.

As for the way the PSP is proposing to measure bps based on time, I'm assuming they're going to have the equipment to actually do this, or will it be depending on expert refs? I'm not doubting the skill of some, perhaps most refs that work the various circuits out there, but the fact remains that refs are human and they do make mistakes...it'd be a shame if a team's tournament was ruined because of an error on a ref's part. I've been around the block enough to know that it does happen, but it's still shameful.

And before Steve and Paul pile on asking what I would propose, I'll say that the event that I'm promoting in Tampa this year will have the NPPL Robot, because I feel it's the most effective way to weed out cheaters available at the moment. I won't delude myself into thinking that the robot is all-powerful...it's not. But it is improving...when I wrote the press release stating that David Zinkam and his robo-ref were going to be there, he noted to me that the picture I used was seriously out of date, as the robot had undergone some serious upgrades in the off-season.

The gollywog rules being put out by CFOA, PSP, and others aren't all-powerful either, so attacking Robo-Ref as being flawed doesn't wash in my book.

Honestly, there really isn't a 'best' solution, other than to insist that all players who participate in competitive paintball play fairly and don't download their skill. However, I would say that everyone present would agree that isn't realisitic. Like other sports, there are players in this sport who will push, pull, bend, and mutilate the rules to suit their needs if they can get away with it.
That leaves people like Steve slogging it out in the pits trying his best to make it fair for everyone, and unfortunately sometimes he's going to fail. When that happens, it's my opinion that Robo-Ref is the way to make an unbiased, non-arguable judgement.

And just to make sure I piss everyone off, the manufacturers themselves have a piece of this problem...wasn't it they who introduced the concept of an adjustable debounce, so that you could make your trigger more or less responsive, depending on the trigger adjustment? Then all the sudden unlocking DB1 became the thing all the cool kids were doing, and now just about everyone's board (including stock ones!) can be set to an illegally enhanced state? What would be wrong with keeping the adjustable filter settings, but resetting the range of adjustability so that even the super-cool DB1 (or TR 9 billion for us Angel freaks) setting is still somewhat safe, while being on the ragged edge of tournament legality, thus making ref's jobs somewhat easier?

Commence flaming, gentleman. I've got my asbestos suit on.
 

ClarisitaZ

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Apr 3, 2003
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ClarisitaZ

Originally posted by Nick Brockdorff
Your example would be valid if we were talking FPS.

But, as we are talking balls PER second, it will always be the average that is interesting.

What would be the purpose of regulating the space between two shots, is NOT to regulate the average???

Nick
I don't fully understand the purpose of the rule. That's why I'm asking, Nick.

1. If it has to do with a risk for the googles, then the time between hits COULD be important (manufacturers should say it that way then).

2. If it has to do with capping ramping/FA guns, then measuring the average would be enough.

If it is the second one, I am interested in seeing how are we gonna deal with the ilegal firing modes in Europe.
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Not gonna burn you, Furbs, but I think in two places youse a wee bit naive.
Robbie the Robot is legitimately only capable of catching the stupid or lazy cheater. Robbie is like the wizard in OZ--as long as you believe he's all-powerful you'll behave but once you know the truth the charade is over.
Beyond that how many guns in how many games can the refs really pull and send to visit Robbie without compromising the schedule? In the NPPL particularly time is at a premium with 11+ hour days the baseline. There is no practical way with one robot and 1000+ players more than random "educated" checks are going to happen.

Second, as long as speed is what sells the manufacturers are gonna offer speed. Doesn't matter if it's legal or not. They aren't in business to accomodate today's rules as has already been demonstrated by the effectiveness of the old self-regulated and industry agreed upon bps standard of 13 that lasted, what, a week or two?