OK so nobody has the rules yet. So why is everybody quarreling? Lets wait for the final rules to come out.
This Millennium 15BPS rule...
- Thread starter Buddha 3
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Intheno
Secondly - you are kinda making my point for me there.... which is that a whole bunch of players will have to buy new boards (or guns), because the testing method is about the space between any two shots - and not shots per second..... and I think it's plain stupid to do it that way, when we may as well chose testing for shots per second, and thus leave all us ordinary mortals that are unable to move our fingers faster than 15 BPS alone, without us having to worry about buying new equipment.
- I'm yet to hear someone explain why it is IMPORTANT to test the space between two shots, rather than shots per second, from a safety or insurance standpoint (which is why this whole 15 BPS cap debate got started).
(anyone saying that it cannot be done MUST be wrong... if you can measure the space between 2 shots, it HAS to be fairly simple to re-write programming (or have the manufacturer do it) to count shots per second.)
Third, you are absolutely right that "the sport" is a much too loose term - so let me qualify it by saying "The Players".
We are the ones the rules are made for - the ones represented on the rules committee of the MS (albeit at this point in time being "secret" - so it can't be contacted) and the ones who should be most concerned with the direction our sport takes (that is kinda why we players are debating the issue here - you know
).
At any rate... I honestly think this whole debate about allowing "enhanced modes" is completely pointless, as ANY "enhanced mode" would be deemed illegel by virtue of NOT being semi-auto by authorities in most European countries, and unless the MS wants to openly and officially be in conflict with the law, I have no idea why the idea is being entertained at all?
Ask ANY European firearms authority (which governs paintball in most countries), and they will say semi-auto is the only allowed firing mode in Europe, and semi-auto is defined as being "one shot per trigger pull".
They will not care about our difficulties in enforcing the law.... they'll just shut down the sport, if our whole defence is "but we are too inept to enforce semi-auto - so sorry".
I can imagine someone calling German police during the MM - and telling them there are a couple of 1000 lunatics running around shooting full auto paintball guns in Bitburg...... we'll all be in the slammer faster than you can say "eins, zwei, polizei".
Nick
First of all - I have not once mentioned WDP in this debate - or any other manufacturer by name - so I don't really know why you are asking me about whether they would use influence to make rule changes in the NPPL?
Secondly - you are kinda making my point for me there.... which is that a whole bunch of players will have to buy new boards (or guns), because the testing method is about the space between any two shots - and not shots per second..... and I think it's plain stupid to do it that way, when we may as well chose testing for shots per second, and thus leave all us ordinary mortals that are unable to move our fingers faster than 15 BPS alone, without us having to worry about buying new equipment.
- I'm yet to hear someone explain why it is IMPORTANT to test the space between two shots, rather than shots per second, from a safety or insurance standpoint (which is why this whole 15 BPS cap debate got started).
(anyone saying that it cannot be done MUST be wrong... if you can measure the space between 2 shots, it HAS to be fairly simple to re-write programming (or have the manufacturer do it) to count shots per second.)
Third, you are absolutely right that "the sport" is a much too loose term - so let me qualify it by saying "The Players".
We are the ones the rules are made for - the ones represented on the rules committee of the MS (albeit at this point in time being "secret" - so it can't be contacted) and the ones who should be most concerned with the direction our sport takes (that is kinda why we players are debating the issue here - you know
).At any rate... I honestly think this whole debate about allowing "enhanced modes" is completely pointless, as ANY "enhanced mode" would be deemed illegel by virtue of NOT being semi-auto by authorities in most European countries, and unless the MS wants to openly and officially be in conflict with the law, I have no idea why the idea is being entertained at all?
Ask ANY European firearms authority (which governs paintball in most countries), and they will say semi-auto is the only allowed firing mode in Europe, and semi-auto is defined as being "one shot per trigger pull".
They will not care about our difficulties in enforcing the law.... they'll just shut down the sport, if our whole defence is "but we are too inept to enforce semi-auto - so sorry".
I can imagine someone calling German police during the MM - and telling them there are a couple of 1000 lunatics running around shooting full auto paintball guns in Bitburg...... we'll all be in the slammer faster than you can say "eins, zwei, polizei".
Nick
Patrik
Nick
Because once the rules come out, they will probably be very hard to change... now is the time we can influence things.... assuming that the people involved with actually writing the rules read this forum (which I certainly believe they do)
Nick
Quote
"- I'm yet to hear someone explain why it is IMPORTANT to test the space between two shots, rather than shots per second, from a safety or insurance standpoint (which is why this whole 15 BPS cap debate got started)."
Anybody?
"- I'm yet to hear someone explain why it is IMPORTANT to test the space between two shots, rather than shots per second, from a safety or insurance standpoint (which is why this whole 15 BPS cap debate got started)."
Anybody?
Intheno
In which case if the authorities and the insurers knew what the guns were really doing now you'd be equally screwed.
The way I read Steve's suggested rule, 15bps without cheating is easy:
As for ROF as a safety issue - ROF cannot have an effect on whether a product (i.e. goggles) fails. Velocity can, and total number of hits can, but getting hit 25 times in one second is just the same as getting hit 25 times in 2 seconds from a failure point of view. The argument must be that higher ROF leads to more overshooting (accidental or deliberate.)
What would be really nice, just for once, is to have the final rules with sufficient notice before the first event they affect, especially where hardware changes or upgrades may be needed; and for the marshalls on the field to actually know the rules and apply them consistently. 2004 was pretty shabby for:
What's the chance of having the official word more than 2 weeks before the first event?
So one shot can be "delayed" up to 150ms. So if you can pull the trigger 15 times a second, the gun can shoot 15bps at constant 66.66667ms intervals without breaking that rule. Easy to hear, easy to spot the difference between that and 16bps, but more difficult than now to spot cheats by their firing pattern. Most existing tournament markers are capable of being set to comply to such a rule now.
As for ROF as a safety issue - ROF cannot have an effect on whether a product (i.e. goggles) fails. Velocity can, and total number of hits can, but getting hit 25 times in one second is just the same as getting hit 25 times in 2 seconds from a failure point of view. The argument must be that higher ROF leads to more overshooting (accidental or deliberate.)
What would be really nice, just for once, is to have the final rules with sufficient notice before the first event they affect, especially where hardware changes or upgrades may be needed; and for the marshalls on the field to actually know the rules and apply them consistently. 2004 was pretty shabby for:
- chrono marshalls not knowing bounce test rules (I saw several guns pulled for 11 shots in 10 pulls)
- field "ultimates" not knowing the "gun down" rules (I'm not even starting on that one)
- judges not even correctly applying rules that haven't changed in years, like velocity - 299 300 299 is legal according the rules, yet many chrono marshalls were refusing guns onto fields with readings like this, because it made their little red box beep.
What's the chance of having the official word more than 2 weeks before the first event?
There is equipment that readily measures the time between two shots. The equipment does not readily measure the number of shots in any given second. You should write the rule to match the way you are able to enfroce it. Additionally, 15 bps in one second is a lot different than 15 bps in a half second and then a half second of nothing.
25 balls in one second is *ENTIRELY* different than 25 balls in two seconds from a goggle failure perspective. This goes back to the above, where 15 balls in once second is ok, but 15 balls in a half second followed by nothing is not.
The 150 ms limit appears to have been replaced by the 3-shot limit, but it's pretty much the same thing - if you stop pulling the trigger, the marker has to stop shooting in fairly short order. I don't think they'll be seriously testing that you don't get more than three shots for every pull, I think they'll be checking to make sure that you don't get more than three shots after the LAST pull.
That, and what is the incentive to cheat on the 3 balls per pull? The penaty for getting caugh isn't worth the reward of having a cheat for it. Since anybody can pull 5 bps, there's no reason to break the rule in the first place.
25 balls in one second is *ENTIRELY* different than 25 balls in two seconds from a goggle failure perspective. This goes back to the above, where 15 balls in once second is ok, but 15 balls in a half second followed by nothing is not.
The 150 ms limit appears to have been replaced by the 3-shot limit, but it's pretty much the same thing - if you stop pulling the trigger, the marker has to stop shooting in fairly short order. I don't think they'll be seriously testing that you don't get more than three shots for every pull, I think they'll be checking to make sure that you don't get more than three shots after the LAST pull.
That, and what is the incentive to cheat on the 3 balls per pull? The penaty for getting caugh isn't worth the reward of having a cheat for it. Since anybody can pull 5 bps, there's no reason to break the rule in the first place.
LET ME REPEAT: The rule suggestions I've made on this thread are ONLY MY SUGGESTIONS so I hope people don't think they are fighting or agreeing with the Mill rules when they discuss my suggestions. I do not know what the details of the Millennium rules will be nor do I know if the rules commissioner for Millennium, Joern Windler, or the rules committee has even looked at what I've suggested. My participation in this thread is only from the perspective of my interest in the sport.
Back to the topic:
Nick may have some point about the semi-only thing. Maybe the rules should state semi-only with the cap and the measuring instruments but maybe the officiating organization will choose not to put any energy into catching electronic help after the third shot, as long as all other aspects are in compliance. Then the rules would LOOK legal to the outside world just like they did last year and we would still have fairness regarding the top ROF.
Back to the topic:
Nick may have some point about the semi-only thing. Maybe the rules should state semi-only with the cap and the measuring instruments but maybe the officiating organization will choose not to put any energy into catching electronic help after the third shot, as long as all other aspects are in compliance. Then the rules would LOOK legal to the outside world just like they did last year and we would still have fairness regarding the top ROF.
So we'd have rules but not enforce them? That's not a good idea, is it?
What do I as a player do? Stick to the rulebook or cheat "knowing" that the officers will not come after me?
What do I as a player do? Stick to the rulebook or cheat "knowing" that the officers will not come after me?