Ramping - Robbo's Article in PGI 195

[SHOG1]

BRING ON THE PUMPS
FFS-electronics etc are all an advancement in technology-pls don't
get rid of ramping(I ain't bought a gun yet wich ramps )-but if you're all Adam Ant:]-)....then bring on the pumps!!!!-hey why not ban aggitating hoppers too?....and only allow people who turn up to tournies by horse and cart to play ........bring on FULL AUTO.....'cause most of you can't hit **** with it anyway

 

[Zebra3]

I wonder if any players have actually noticed that the MS rules that they print on the MS web site are not actually for the PSP mode that they allow the players to use. I wonder if this is the MS organization being deliberately vague. I mean I wonder what would happen if as ITN said someone was to have an accident at a MS event. I mean the MS would say oh no Mr Judge our rules do not allow the PSP mode at our events, here look at our rules. Or if as Bully said they are being vague for insurance reasons?
If they are going to allow the PSP mode at least print what the rules are.
You know the vote that they had in Germany this was how the vote went down.
Voting results (132 teams):
The questions were: 1) do u like ramping? 2) do you like PSP mode?

49% voted no for ramping and no psp mode
36% voted yes for ramping and psp mode
15% voted yes for ramping no for psp mode
01% votes no for ramping but yes for psp mode - which is weird.
2 without an opinion


36 Referees voted: 100% no ramping - no psp mode
2 referees without an opinion

 

[bulldog2k]

This thread is now 6 pages long with - what? - 5 posts that IN ANYWAY refer to to the title of thread.

Any chance of it keeping on topic? I think there are plenty of other general pro/anti ramping threads?

 

[Flash-Bugout]

I still can't work out why there wasn't anywhere near this amount of fuss from people when the old Shocker Turbo came out. (can anyone who's read Robbos article say if he has addressed this point?)

 

[Syd (NSPL)]

Originally posted by Flash-Bugout
I still can't work out why there wasn't anywhere near this amount of fuss from people when the old Shocker Turbo came out. (can anyone who's read Robbos article say if he has addressed this point?)

Because the tournament organisers got together and made it tourney illegal.

Let's face it, we wouldn't have the problem we have now if all events were still none-ramping zones.

So, what about Robbo's solution. Is it workable and if so, where does it need to be implemented? From the domestic leagues up, or the international events down? If not, is there anything we can change about the solution to make it workable.

All the technology in the world is only going to solve so many problems and even if it did, some other technology will come along to get around that anyway, so surely we have to rely on the human element. If not, what the hell are our referees for anyway?

 

[JoseDominguez]

OK, so if auto is illegal and therefore ramping or in fact if it "may be illegal" or may cause us problems.

What are the other tourneys doing to ensure that ROF is legal and markers are not assisted? Are the hand held shot counters being used elsewhere?
I can't stand ramping, it just bugs me and I think it potentially risky....... but, 15bps controlled ramp is a lot safer than an illegal ramping board with cheat codes etc...
How are we stopping them again? I'm all for stopping gun cheats and using true semi. How are the non-ramp tourneys ensuring this isn't happening?
In act, if auto on a marker does become a legal issue, then any marker capable of bounce is illegal..... that's all of them. Firearms law states "not capable of automatic fire without significant modification" turning a grub screw is not significant, nor is altering your debounce with software. Firearms law all relates to mechanical firearms........ I'm pretty sure that any electro which can be software programmed or adjusted to bounce/ramp etc.... using an alen key etc.. would immediately be rendered illegal.

Firearms need to be capable of "lethal injury" without modification, which is why they are currently ignoring us. I was really worried about solid practice rounds last year...... was pretty much told to stop stirring it. What's the difference this time?

 

[Ben Frain]

Originally posted by Syd (NSPL)
Because the tournament organisers got together and made it tourney illegal.

Let's face it, we wouldn't have the problem we have now if all events were still none-ramping zones.

So, what about Robbo's solution. Is it workable and if so, where does it need to be implemented? From the domestic leagues up, or the international events down? If not, is there anything we can change about the solution to make it workable.

All the technology in the world is only going to solve so many problems and even if it did, some other technology will come along to get around that anyway, so surely we have to rely on the human element. If not, what the hell are our referees for anyway?

Syd, I am all for semi-only if it can be made workable. However, for me, the Robbo solution in the article is just too grey.

What are we defining as 'ramping' here? 1-2-3 and then upto 20? 12 shots for 10 pulls? In the article Robbo gives most weight to the 1-2-3 RAMP upto whatever - and I totally agree - a ref could spot that and instantly ban the player (or whatever)

However, domoestically speaking I think the cases of 1-2-3 and then big ramp were VERY few and far between in the last couple of seasons.

The 12 shots for 10 pulls problem on the otherhand was EVERYWHERE though and it wasn't custom boards that were providing it for the most part - it was stock boards.

In these cases I think it would be near impossible for a marshall to make a correct decision as to whether a marker was ramping or not. So what is the plan? Ignore these suspected 12 for 10 incidents? Pull the player anyway? Where does the line get drawn?

I am not sure that just leaving the decision to a refs opinion is good enough. Some markers 'seem' faster than others just because of the sounds they make. The eyes and ears are very fallible in such extreme circumstances and cannot be trusted.

Having said that I suppose if the rules are the same for all and are enforced as best they can be it would be no worse than now. I just don't think it would be 'fair'.

 

[Raffles]

Good point(s) Syd. Cheating goes on in any and every sport - always has done - always will do (steroids is the first thing that comes to mind).

Hell, even chess had it's "you spiked my yoghurt" claims!

In my own humble, un-educated opinion - allowing ramping is giving in to it. Yes, there will always be the hardcore cheats who will try and sneak a ramping marker in past the refs. (I've seen it done at the PA last year). So those cheats are now going to have to find yet another way to get the 'advantage' - wiping/velocity/marbles/poison darts/whatever. This is a fact of life, especially if there is going to be a prize at the end for the winners.

So instead of a handful of gats doing illegal ramping - you now have a lot of ramping and a handful going that little bit further...

As a matter of interest - who actually asked for ramping to be made legal in the first place? Was it a group of representatives for every tourney player in the UK? Was it the paint manufacturers? Was it tourney organisers? Who is to blame for this mess?

Believe it or not, I can actually see the 'let ramping in' side of this. All the noobs can now sit behind their bunkers aiming 15bps in the air and saying things like 'have you took the photo yet mum?'. Maybe ramping should be made a div 1 priviledge only - giving the 'big guns' the 'big weapons' and keeping us minions away from the big boys toys. Trouble is, how do you stop a noob getting hold of a ramping gat so easily when any kid (compared to me) can go into the likes of Planet and hand over £200 and walk away with an out-of-the box ramper like an ION?

I do remember the 'scare' about introducing electronic trigger frames to the market - and people were wondering about ROF even way back then (going from 4 to 12 overnight). Thing is, even wth electronic trigger mechs - you still need to be able to pull the trigger faster to get your balls out faster (and this is all they actually allowed you to do - it was still 1-shot per 1-pull). If you let go of the trigger - the gun topped firing - simple!

Now 3-shot burst (which UK ramping effectively is) is very dangerous (again - in my opinion) as you have no control as to when the gun stops firing - and where those last 2 balls go. Very dangerous indeed - especially in the hands of mr 'just started playing'.

Maybe we should actually post a poll on here - rather than just post our worthless opinions on here (me included)?

 

[JoseDominguez]

Problem is we've a massively expensive, technology driven sport which lacks the infrastructure of anything comparable...... Chrony check and that's it. No other sport is that relaxed about it. Problem being, every game has 14 players, each carrying a small computer. They are never checked, you can take anything onto the field. there's just so much out there. Main issue being, accidental bounce etc.... was caught. Cheats could get away with it (easily). Only way to prevent completely is....
1) full tech inspection of EVERY marker before a tourney (who's paying for that)
2) Back to manual.

Simple.

I quite like Ben's idea of limiting hoppers though. But come on, honestly...... even Robot Wars had more stringent checks on equipment than we get. You can complain about ramping as much as you want, but until there's a viable way to prevent gun cheats, it's all just hot air.

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by JoseDominguez
Problem is we've a massively expensive, technology driven sport which lacks the infrastructure of anything comparable......

Spot on. When you really think about it, going on to the field with 14 compressed air tanks running potentially lethal weapons with potentially uncapped ROF and ramping velocity is a ****ing stupid idea...the whole thing is an exercise in trust. Or blind faith that God likes you.