Ramping - Robbo's Article in PGI 195

[Steve Morris]

Originally posted by Mark Toye-Nexus
LOL

Toulouse last year - try and get a head judge to the field that you are just about to play on when they are running behind and you are arguing that he isnt following the agreed procedure. The judge in question was amazed when I asked him why he wasnt following it - he didnt even know that there was a standard.

I was gobsmacked, we borrowed a spare for a team waiting, the guy merrily proceded in ignorance.

I recall now that there was one field where we changed chrono judges after Friday. If it happened after that then it was despite as much effort Andy Scutt and I could humanly muster under the circumstances.

Nick Truter (who has got to be one of the friendliest and most respectful PB guys I know) approached me either Friday or Saturday morning and asked for more detail about what we were looking for and after that there were zero problems that I heard about with any gun he adjusted. In fact the Hardcore guys told me they had after Nick's adjustments zero bounce and fast and easy triggers.

What's so ironic here, Mark, is that you berate the efforts I and we made to try to keep it semi-only, you admit you were unfairly outgunned because your team stuck to semi and yet you lampoon an attempt to try to address the very problems you point out.

God knows I bent over backwards last year trying to make semi work while seeking information and advice from all quarters.

I don't thing you're being logically consistent or fair.

 

[Chicago]

Originally posted by jotajotaZ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFID
This does not take care of the trigger bounce issue

Yes it does. Despite the lies of board and gun manufacturers everywhere, there is absolutely no reason for a board to have trigger bounce except that the manufacturer of the board wants it to be there.

A trigger is just a glorified switch. You've got at least 101 switches in front of you right now - how often to you accidentally get two characters out of one key press?

Never. There are both circuits and software readily available that completely eliminate switch bounce.



As for blaming the players - it's not just the players fault, it's just as much the fault of those with the ability to make a long-term decision that pander to the ignorant players instead.

But you have to understand why they're doing that pandering if you're to have any hope of solving the problem.

 

[Steve Morris]

Originally posted by Chicago
...you have to understand why they're doing that pandering if you're to have any hope of solving the problem...

To bring this down to primer level for folks like me, would the "why" be the love of money connected with keeping the arms race going? Short-term thinking as we all know but most of us live for today, don't we?

 

[John C]

Originally posted by Chicago
Yes it does. Despite the lies of board and gun manufacturers everywhere, there is absolutely no reason for a board to have trigger bounce except that the manufacturer of the board wants it to be there.

QFT

 

[Steve Bull]

More petrol on the fire

The debate continues but maybe in the UK there might be light at the end of the tunnel.

With my series event organisers head on I totally agree with Robbo, Syd, (South west league) and the UK masters - we don’t want ramping, simple. The problem is there will always be players pushing the rules and if the example set by the UKM this weekend is followed by other UK “regional” organisers, players using ramping will be banned.

Now with my UKPSF head on I had a conversation with an insurance company a couple of weeks ago and they were very concerned when I explained about ramping. There response was “I hope it is not being used on sites we insure!!” Well I assume that the 250 site members of the UKPSF do not and have not intention of using ramping markers with customers but what about the tournament organiser who they insure.

They will be reviewing the situation this is one reason why I and the UK Masters don’t allow ramping - we could loose our insurance !!!!! This would be the end of my events because I will not run events without insurance. Players playing my events sign a document to say they are not using ramping chips and if they are they accept they will be banned if found, they also accept that if they cause an injury as a result of a ramping marker they will be liable!!!

We can’t hide behind the letter from the Home Office which few have read but it has been quoted so many times that paintball markers are now classed as “toys”. I have the letter and the word “toy” does not appear anywhere.

Why has the UKPSF not updated their advice with regards to allowing modes other than semi - because the letters and e mails I have received from sites and players concerned about ramping out weight the one that supports ramping plus there is the insurance issue.

The question must be asked - have any other organisers actually spoken their insurers and explained what ramping is or do they prefer not to mention it incase their insurance is withdrawn - assuming they are insured.

I could spend hours writing about this topic but I have other things to do so feel free to e mail me or post your comments, the debate will not end this week I am sure !!

Incidentally airsoft FA is allowed because they fire at 1 Joule or less which classes them as a toy, but this toy is under the spotlight as they (when an MP wants to gain some brownie points) are looking at banning replica weapons and this will cover these so called toys!! Don’t give MP’s ammunition to have a go at paintball - we police our sport very well without outside interference.

Steve

PS "assuming they are insured" this is not a dig an any event organiser as I know most in the UK are insured.

 

[KitsuneAndy]

From the point of view of a new player...

I can't see how ramping can be a good thing, I'm well aware that I'm going to be outgunned without people having the need for any ramping as I'm just getting into paintball and have a pathetically low ROF. Playing against players using ramping is just going to make it even worse.

I could play at their own game and get my marker ramped, but I dont want to, I dont see any skill in having a stupidly high ROF, so that you just point your marker in the general direction and let loose a hail of paintballs so that you *must* hit something..

Surely with everyone firing at a stupidly high ROF, there's going to be paint in the air where ever you look. That mean's its impossible to work your way up the field picking people off with well placed shots. It's just a case of running through a hail of paint and hoping none of it actually hits you, then pointing your marker around a bunker and emptying a hopper in the vague hope that something's in front of you..

Yes, I'm new, and I'm fully expecting to get raped for this comment

Flame away.

 

[Chicago]

Originally posted by Steve Morris
To bring this down to primer level for folks like me, would the "why" be the love of money connected with keeping the arms race going? Short-term thinking as we all know but most of us live for today, don't we?

To be honest, I don't really think it has anythin gto do with money, at least not for event organizers, adn at least not in the sense other than that they don't want to lose any.

I think it has a lot more to do with a combination of pride and laziness - it's a lot easier to not do anything about it, and not doing anything about it also doesn't risk the majority of your customers (the whiney ones) leaving.

 

[Intheno]

Look, as far as the UK and most of Europe goes, Bully is 100% right. You won't get insurance. You can't get insurance for ramping guns, so arguing the fors and againsts of ramping in the UK and Europe should stop right there shouldn't it? Or is anyone saying that its OK for events to be run without adequate insurance? If you are saying that, then you are an idiot.

As for the US, I am not aware of an insurance that covers FA and/or ramping there either, and I have looked, so lets assume the same insurance restrictions are in place there, which to the best of my knowledge they are.

That said, who wants to say Ramping/full-auto is a good idea and why?

I mean, I know I have said this before, but the subtle difference between allowing ramping and not allowing it but have people cheat is simple.

In a court of law you can stand up and say;
"Ramping is not allowed in the rules, and personnel and technology have been employed to prevent it, and people caught will be banned."

On the other hand you could stand up in court and say,
"erm, yeah, ramping and full-auto are allowed under our rules because lots of kids wanted it, and no, I know we aren't insured, and oh, no, don't sue me, ramping is considered cool by the kids man, its sweet dude," etc...

Not much of a choice for the discerning tournament operator really, and that doesn't touch on safety, or the morality of cheating, or any of that other fun stuff, it doesn't need to, the Insurance/liability issue is all the argument needs to fall apart.
I see no sensible way around this issue, so the rest of the squawking is surely redundant, is it not?

 

[Dusty]

the only true way to eliminate ramping and gun cheating is to go back to mechanical markers.

remember when a right hand feed cocker was top of the range?? those were the glory days!!!

seriously though gun manufacturers are going to get serious wake up call WHEN someone gets injured through "the gun went haywire by itself!" syndrome.

can anyone imagine 10 balls in the back of the head from 10 feet in less than two thirds of a second???

 

[mad dog]

Dead simple, you have all been waiting for this.

One comment "TRIGGER SKILL NOT CHIP SKILL".

Pull the dam trigger by yourself and stop looking for ways to look good.