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Ramping - Robbo's Article in PGI 195

Russell Smith

The Paintball Association
More petrol on the fire

Originally posted by Steve Bull


With my series event organisers head on I totally agree with Robbo, Syd, (South west league) and the UK masters - we don’t want ramping, simple. The problem is there will always be players pushing the rules and if the example set by the UKM this weekend is followed by other UK “regional” organisers, players using ramping will be banned.
I spoke to Robbo about this and he told me that it was not ramping itself he does not like but the unrealistic rate of fire it allows you to reach.
When you think about the team he owns and the players he has if he thinks that the rate is too high I am happy to listen and in this point I agree with him.
His points about better reffing will catch naughty markers is wrong it can not be done the modes/cheats are to clever, one of the most common ones I know about in the states (beside the breakout mode) needs the player to shoot the gun at more than 7bps to keep the cheat mode active, how on earth could any ref find that.
And as for the player being banned, that gun was supplied by an UKPSF trade member in ramp enabled mode, but will the ukpsf say anything to them, no of course it wont it will just let the inexperienced player who just thought he could shoot fast to carry the can.


Originally posted by Steve Bull

Now with my UKPSF head on I had a conversation with an insurance company a couple of weeks ago and they were very concerned when I explained about ramping. There response was “I hope it is not being used on sites we insure!!” Well I assume that the 250 site members of the UKPSF do not and have not intention of using ramping markers with customers but what about the tournament organiser who they insure.
They was also concerned when I explained about why we wanted a cap on the rate of fire at tournament level, as to what the other tounament events allow or say they will is another matter. Nobody is even thinking of letting customer sites have any sort of ramp mode and as for the tournament sites do you really think players do not break the rules at EVERY and I do mean EVERY event, well done to the girls who proved they had the balls to keep to there rules about banning a player who used a ramp mode.

Originally posted by Steve Bull

They will be reviewing the situation this is one reason why I and the UK Masters don’t allow ramping - we could loose our insurance !!!!! This would be the end of my events because I will not run events without insurance. Players playing my events sign a document to say they are not using ramping chips and if they are they accept they will be banned if found, they also accept that if they cause an injury as a result of a ramping marker they will be liable!!!
Steve
Well I must remember to give them my input about what happens at the events they insure.
And as for signing documents about not using ramping chips, the player who was banned at the masters would have quite happily signed that because he purchased his ion from a ukpsf trade shop and they wouldn't supply something like that would they.
Of course they would and have done for years and perhaps the insurance companys should be told that.


Originally posted by Steve Bull

The question must be asked - have any other organisers actually spoken their insurers and explained what ramping is or do they prefer not to mention it incase their insurance is withdrawn - assuming they are insured.
Steve
Well we did and ours is fine they may have expressed some concern if I told them what happens at other events !!!
Do rec ball games carry insurance because there is more full auto/ramping guns at them than any other.
I found a fully auto marker at the UKPSF big game and what was done, nothing
I found many guns firing at over the limit and nothing was done apart from asking them to turn it down and one was 420fps but who's bothered about it really. As long as the events make money who gives a **** about the people paying the bills.
What about the player who was shot through the top of his goggles so got hit in the face at the masters (Kewi Jono) if that had happened at the PA we would have had a 20 page rant on here by now and have been blaming it on the ramping, or was it the cheats allowed at other events, maybe, maybe not but should we not tell the insurance companies what happened and point out the risk to their funds



Russ
 

Raffles

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Jun 21, 2004
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I totally agree JD. But how long before we get 'cheat' boards for hoppers? Like I said - cheats will always find a way to cheat - it's in their nature - and it is life.

But, by allowing ramping, you have given in to the cheats and said it's OK for everyone else to cheat - a moral victory maybe - but it's still cheating.

More stringent checks on players equipment would help - but would add to an already expensive hobby. I know for a fact that there were 2 ramping gats in one team last year - and both got past the refs as the only thing refs were checking for was bounce (and that was only after the game - no pre-game bounce checks afaik).

I think a refs job has been made a lot harder this year - as spotting any form of illegal ramping is going to be a lot harder (especially if you have 13 gats all doing 15bps and one doing 20).

Maybe a better approach would have been to put more emphasis on anti-ramping and much stiffer penalties for anyone being caught doing it. Bigger penalty = bigger deterrant (usually). Maybe then, some of the sneaky rampers from last season wouldn't have risked it this.

And yes - complaining about it on here is just hot air (or hot fingers) - so anti-rampers should vote with their feet (or even better, with their pockets). Don't buy a ramping gun - don't play in tourney's that allow ramping. Take away your custom and maybe the people you pay to play will take notice.

That's what I (and quite a few others now) did. Let's hope it makes certain people sit up and take notice.
 

Ben Frain

twit twoo
Sep 7, 2002
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Originally posted by Raffles
I totally agree JD. But how long before we get 'cheat' boards for hoppers? Like I said - cheats will always find a way to cheat - it's in their nature - and it is life.
In most instances I would agree but in this instance - HOW?

If you have an 'agitating loaders only' policy you can have any board you like in there, one quick check in the hopper and as long as it just has a paddle that agitates the balls (e.g. 12v Revi/Halo TSA) you aren't going to make it any faster than 15BPS - no way whatsoever.
 

Raffles

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Jun 21, 2004
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Ben - I am sure people will find a way :). After all revvy's made the leap to x-board to give better feed rates - same for eggs with the y/z boards. Manufacturers will see it as a challenge and come up with something (same way they did for the trigger frames). And how do you see inside a hopper thats full of paintballs?

I agree with you in principle - limiting feed rates has to limit fire power - but the only way (as JD rightly stated) is to have an 'inspected and sealed by a tech' label on every grip frame (a sort of 'void if removed' type label). Yes - it adds to price - but it makes the game a lot safer - which is my main concern.
 

Ben Frain

twit twoo
Sep 7, 2002
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Originally posted by Raffles
Ben - I am sure people will find a way :). After all revvy's made the leap to x-board to give better feed rates - same for eggs with the y/z boards. Manufacturers will see it as a challenge and come up with something (same way they did for the trigger frames). And how do you see inside a hopper thats full of paintballs?

I agree with you in principle - limiting feed rates has to limit fire power - but the only way (as JD rightly stated) is to have an 'inspected and sealed by a tech' label on every grip frame (a sort of 'void if removed' type label). Yes - it adds to price - but it makes the game a lot safer - which is my main concern.
Come Andy, it really wouldn't be rocket science and I won't go any more off topic than this post in relation to this but...

The rule would be 'agitating loaders only' therefore no Evo II's, No HaloB or variants, no Qloaders etc

New chrono procedure could be as follows...

1. Player must approach the chrono area with his loader empty.
2. Ref inspects loader to check it is standard 'agitating only' loader (e.g opens lid and looks in to make sure it doesn't have a nuclear reactor inside etc). Once passed the player empties a pot into his loader and continues to stage 3.
3. Player does standard 3 shot FPS speed test
4. The end.
 

Mark Toye-Nexus

Rushers
Jul 18, 2001
1,586
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Originally posted by Ben Frain
In most instances I would agree but in this instance - HOW?

If you have an 'agitating loaders only' policy you can have any board you like in there, one quick check in the hopper and as long as it just has a paddle that agitates the balls (e.g. 12v Revi/Halo TSA) you aren't going to make it any faster than 15BPS - no way whatsoever.
Ben - this is nice - I agree!!

In fact the faster you make the paddles turn, the slower the feed rate.

mark
 
D

duffistuta

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Dear Mr Posterivo,

Sorry, we are banning your hopper.

Yours,

TLTDWTLVL

(The League That Doesn't Want to Live Very Long)
 

Chicago

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Jan 31, 2005
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Originally posted by Intheno
no Ben, its not the bigger problem. By that same argument people who travel at 100mph on the roads can blame the car manufacturers for creating cars that can exceed the speed limit.
That's not the same thing at all.

When you're driving your car 100 MPH, the speedometer says "Hey, you're driving 100 MPH."

When you're shooting your stock paintball marker, it says "Hey, you're shooting sem-auto (wink, wink)"
 

Chicago

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Originally posted by Zebra3
I wonder if any players have actually noticed that the MS rules that they print on the MS web site are not actually for the PSP mode that they allow the players to use. I wonder if this is the MS organization being deliberately vague.
They are being intentionally vague.
 

JoseDominguez

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Oct 25, 2002
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Originally posted by Raffles
I totally agree JD. But how long before we get 'cheat' boards for hoppers? Like I said - cheats will always find a way to cheat - it's in their nature - and it is life.

But, by allowing ramping, you have given in to the cheats and said it's OK for everyone else to cheat - a moral victory maybe - but it's still cheating.

More stringent checks on players equipment would help - but would add to an already expensive hobby. I know for a fact that there were 2 ramping gats in one team last year - and both got past the refs as the only thing refs were checking for was bounce (and that was only after the game - no pre-game bounce checks afaik).

I think a refs job has been made a lot harder this year - as spotting any form of illegal ramping is going to be a lot harder (especially if you have 13 gats all doing 15bps and one doing 20).

Maybe a better approach would have been to put more emphasis on anti-ramping and much stiffer penalties for anyone being caught doing it. Bigger penalty = bigger deterrant (usually). Maybe then, some of the sneaky rampers from last season wouldn't have risked it this.

And yes - complaining about it on here is just hot air (or hot fingers) - so anti-rampers should vote with their feet (or even better, with their pockets). Don't buy a ramping gun - don't play in tourney's that allow ramping. Take away your custom and maybe the people you pay to play will take notice.

That's what I (and quite a few others now) did. Let's hope it makes certain people sit up and take notice.
As long as it's gravity fed, it simply obeys the laws of physics, you can put HAL in the hopper circuit board, it still won't increase the effects of gravity :)