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Ramping - Robbo's Article in PGI 195

Raffles

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Jun 21, 2004
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Originally posted by lettucecheesecake
...You know the ones we could use if wanted and people did, before ''legal'' ramping was brought in!
...
You really think that those 'cheats' have stopped just because everyone else is allowed to fire 15bps? If anything, it has made it easier for them to get away with it at much higher ROF and (dare say it) velocity.

You are not on a level playing field - they have just upped their cheating skills to compensate.
 

Pump'n'Splat

Ambassador of BOING!
I think i'm being swayed into Anti-ramping and agree with Robbo. It really can't be that hard for a marshal to make a judgement call and for it to be upheld, most of us can now estimate if someone is ramping or not...ramping isn't safe (or at the least, isn't healthy!), it's *potentially* illegal, and as Robbo says it affects a skill of the game, whether or not these bionic 15bps+ players exist without it :p

And to lend power to Raffles argument, at the last Masters event, I overheard a convo in the pub where a player was talking about creating a board that would allow massive ramping, way over the 15bps for *just the three seconds after breakout*, as it wouldn't be possible for the PA to use their magic raygun that quickly on all the players breaking out, and besides the marshals would be looking at the players for hits on breakout (or, as has been observed, though not by me...getting the F*ck out of the way of the laser beams of paint)...so, far from ramping levelling the playing field, it's just giving people a higher barrier to aim at for technical "cheating".
 
Oct 5, 2002
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Ah, but now we can all hit 15bps easily this doesnt give them anywhere near as much advantage as they did have, making it a ''fairer field''.

Im not 100% for ramping but i am 100% against gun cheaters and any way of giving them less of an advantage im all for it.as you said they will always be around.

Veloicty ramping is the lowest of the low,and the companys who add this to their guns/boards/chips need their heads checking,and the players that choose to use it for their advantage have no respect for the game and fellow player. (scum)
 

Raffles

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Jun 21, 2004
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Originally posted by lettucecheesecake
...Veloicty ramping is the lowest of the low,and the companys who add this to their guns/boards/chips need their heads checking.
Agreed, but as you can't police it - why not make it legal? (yes - I am drawing a parallel and trying to make a joke at the same time ;))
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
Originally posted by Pump'n'Splat
It really can't be that hard for a marshal to make a judgement call and for it to be upheld, most of us can now estimate if someone is ramping or not...

and as Robbo says it affects a skill of the game, whether or not these bionic 15bps+ players exist without it :p
Until it's you or a teammate and you demand to know what the ref was thinking as all your guns are perfectly legal and the only recourse you have is zip, zero, nada, none and bupkiss cus it's all then to the ref's discretion and he made a judgment. These of course will be the same refs y'all squeal about after every event for being blind, dumb, confused or simply too inexperienced. Sure, it'll work out fine.

Baloney! (Sorry, Pete ;) )
 

Pump'n'Splat

Ambassador of BOING!
Baca, the calls happen, the arguments happen...whether it's down to ramping or not...and you can't sway a marshal once they've made the call...and marshalls are there to make those calls

It's a "fine" i'd prefer to see played, than the "fine" of allowing ramping, and waiting for that first incident, be it insurance claims denied, claims of negligence after injury, or a government crackdown on "guns" that exceed one pull one shot (the marker floats in a grey area over this, but it's not a grey area we can prove or disprove...and remember, English law is based on precedence, it only has to happen once!)

but to get back to answering the "marshall vs player" argument, We had a helluva ****ty call at the masters at the weekend where we got penalised for essentially shooting lanes...a guy ran through the fifty and caught a lotta paint in the head, he got concussed and the marshal thought that because he got concussed we were playing too aggressive..we had no recourse, zip, zero, nada..cos the ref made that call and he stood by it, even when the opposing team captain agrred with us that it was a bad call......what should we do? Create a rule that allows for a certain amount of aggressive play so it's all level? and then tell the marshalls they can't decide what's aggressive because there's a rule for it?

Just changing the rules, doesn't make the call any different, or take away the ref's decision to call a player out, and it doesn't stop the player whining, we enjoy whining, it's what makes us comptetetive....all the 15bps ramping rule does is pander to new and dubious technology, rather than rooting it out.

I disagree with the "fairer field" call as well...how does it make it fairer? By marginalising a skill? I can't run as fast as the Front Player on a rival team...does that mean he should wear weights so he is as slow as me, making it a fairer field? Should we all hit the field with identical kit? Should larger players be given proportionately sized bunkers, to make the field fairer for them?...I agree with Robbo in that these arguments are used to justify something that's more a whim than a requirement, and they're not solid justifications.

But to me it's not about the skill, it's about the safety, I'm worrying about that day that someone gets drilled to the point of causing injury (imagine my scneario above if we'd been using ramping boards!) and the Home Office *really* take a look at the legality of 1-trigger-pull-5-balls. I've just penned a letter to the Scottish Parliament trying to ensure that when the airgun laws are revised in Scotland because of a spate of recent dickhead shootings in which people have been killed and tried to justify why a Paintball marker should remain out of specific legislation, or at least be considered as a piece of sporting equipment, and I really had to sit there and think what the government would think if I handed them my ION in rebound mode and asked them whether they could consider that as not dangerous......it's a joke.
 
Ive been fortunate enough to have played for a very long time. Ive watched as my Sterling became obsolete and ive dropped my retro mag in favour of a matrix. The path of paintball development has been short and at times a little scary. This is a monor step in a journey that will hopefully last decades.

Ramping itself really isnt the issue here (believe it or not!!!). The real issue is the way in which the authorities that matter in our sport have essentially rolled over to a problem enforcing a rule. Ramping is cheating, most rule books actually say so. But instead of penalising this very serious infringements of one of the basic rules of the game, the various people said 'if you cant beat them join them'. This sets a very worrying and horrendously damaging precedent for the future

One of the major problems that is going to hinder the further development of our sport is the ineffective enforcement of the rules. We cant even get decent marshalls at the majority of tournaments that i have played. Most are unaware of the rules and if they are then they are inept at making sure they are followed. By allowing people to continue to break the rules and then argue that it couldnt be enforced anyway will get us nowhere and will have other sports laughoung at us forever more.

I am against ramping and always will be. It adds nothing to the game and has no long term benefit. I am also of the belief that shooting fast is one of the lesser skills if in fact it actually is one. But if we want this to work, if we want our sport to be taken seriously we have to look at the basics first.

Get the rules sorted and then stick by them.
 

Baca Loco

Ex-Fun Police
The largest problem with the rules of pball is subjectivity because it leads to a lack of consistent enforcement. Adding a huge and hugely subjective extra burden on the refs isn't an answer that will solve anything. But, hey, it's your tourney dollar or pound or Euro and if that's what you want I'm sure there's someone prepared to give it to you.

An interesting parallel seems to me would the so-called war on drugs. For the argument against ramping substitute the legalization of marijuana and see if you're on the same side of both arguments. Just a little thought experiment.

Or, if you wish to stick with sports analogies try to come up with a rule change in another sport that would be of similar impact to ramping shots in Pball. For example, suddenly allowing the use of hands in futbol wouldn't be the same thing because it would change the game completely. If you can come up with a good sports analogy maybe it will put ramping into perspective.
 

Chicago

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Jan 31, 2005
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At the end of the day:

Whether or not you think shot ramping is ok doesn't change what must be done:

Guns must have certified, verifiable boards. Even if you allow shot ramping, you still need certified, verifiable boards to stop velocity ramping and exceeding the BPS limit. Even if you allow unlimited full auto, you still need the verified board EVEN MORE to stop velocity ramping.

Giving into shot ramping now instead of adopting verifiable boards is just delaying the inevitable.