Ramping at the PA...

[mad dog]

Originally posted by Dark Warrior
As these boards are non standard don't you think they will stand out a bit on inspection

God well here we go did you know I have electronics qualifications, as a lad tested and designed chips, we can identify chips and test them really easy.

Ok lets talk boards with plug in port to identifiy chips and modes . whoops I know what you going to say WDP have infra red etc so well done WDP for being ahead of the game.

But a point where You jack in a getting communication off a laptop identifying information about the chip etc.

We just got new ramping boards really easily because they are making money, why not then a jack point added to assess modes and chip log.

Get the picture yet, simple is as simple does.

 

[mad dog]

Originally posted by DANIEL
if you have the know how you can reprogram the board, so it looks the same but has hidden shiz on it.
this idea wont work. but it is good to see someone trying to think of solutions.
another thing, there are many different markers with many different grip frames and buttons in various places, i dont see the possibility of a universal grip.

So adjust and adapt, different screws and seals for different markers whats the problem , buy more boxes to put seals into, we can even have names above the boxes saying things like Angel capping official seals.

But then again the problem may be stolen seals, so a seal would be date stamped for that competition day. Before anybody says anything. with a seriel number maybe as well.

Cost of doing this well, cheap considering the implications of safety and arguments quashed.

Christ what does it take to see it coming into a events, maybe I will try it. Wonder how many players will leave events with dodgy markers because they think we are stupid and dont understand markers or software.

 

[ascutt]

Its an interesting suggestion but I dont see how you would detect anything but obvious PSP mode etc. You would not find those chips that have programmable button or trigger activation like Advantage - the same way judges were unable to find them last season.

Also, not sure of the logistics required to process say 800+ players?

 

[mad dog]

Originally posted by ascutt
Its an interesting suggestion but I dont see how you would detect anything but obvious PSP mode etc. You would not find those chips that have programmable button or trigger activation like Advantage - the same way judges were unable to find them last season.

Also, not sure of the logistics required to process say 800+ players?

Would be a bit of a knightmare I realise this, but unless looked at do we not learn.

The fear of this happening and being caught may be enough, maybe just random testing on a team with boards.

But full testing on application would be good with a secondary different colour tag to say it has not had full chip test just a manual one through testing on a tech ref tent to speed up the point.

Maybe its defeating the point I mentioned earlier but hey DO WE NOT CRAWL BEFORE WALKING, Or SHALL WE JUST GET UP AND RUN.

We can do anything we want to do its up to us a players to stop issues before they start, this would be a good point to show we care about how we present ourselves as responsible players and governing bodies love official stamps on things.

There will always be software and chip wizards out there but we will be aware of this when examining the board, thats will lead to a stamp sorry seal advising this marker is capable of cheating and make refs aware by the colour code on the tag.


RED = PROBLEM OR BAN
AMBER= Ok but capable of mechanical cheating
GREEN= Passed

A simple universal traffic light system understood by all and the most tired and hard worked of refs on the planet

 

[Dark Warrior]

Originally posted by ascutt
Its an interesting suggestion but I dont see how you would detect anything but obvious PSP mode etc. You would not find those chips that have programmable button or trigger activation like Advantage - the same way judges were unable to find them last season.

Also, not sure of the logistics required to process say 800+ players?

It may not be possible to to identify the activation code, but there are means to identify the chip and apparently ways to make them tamper evident. If Advantage want to make a cheater board then ban the board or any board with the identified chip onboard.

 

[mad dog]

Just a point if you used this idea, your marker could be registered to you and the seriel number logged down, as well and without proper transfer sale paperwork your identified to that marker.

If your using a borrowed marker you must prove this, but if your marker gets stolen then its on the stolen list and will identified straight away, wow ur in a load of trouble. the picture looks good even for that reason alone.

If a marker is so called ringed or seriel number changed or looks like its been changed then it will be investigated further.

This was another one of my ideas for marker registration last year which got flushed.

 

[Russell Smith]

Originally posted by ollytheosteo
Russ- I've certainly seen fights at more than one UK tourney, unless your definition of a "cafuffle" involves punches being thrown and fellas on the ground.

Well mate the truth us I never have.

Originally posted by ollytheosteo
I'm sure UK paintball appreciates you sticking up for us by sueing people who disagree with the PA,

Nothing to do with him being anti PA, that I dont mind, it's up to him.
But to say that we had ramping fps with no proof at all is wrong, he also claimed that a type of goggle system would fail, and we should stop them being used or warn the owners.

Originally posted by ollytheosteo
but I'd like to see a few of the specific complaints that people have made addressed in more detail;

Was there a failure in chrono protocol? Were people able to get on field with guns firing over the limit? If so, how on earth was this allowed to happen? A 280fps limit that isn't enforced is a hell of a lot more dangerous than a 300fps that is.

There was no failure in the chrono protocol, we have always checked everyone in the team going onto the field, as you know the UK norm is to pick a couple of players at random, in the later half of the morning session we started to lose a little time so I took a decision to tell one of the chrono stations to start to pick players at random from each team, at least three untill we finished the morning session to stop the bottle neck from developing.

Originally posted by ollytheosteo
Is the device you are using to measure ROF effective or not? Some of the people posting on here have plainly stated that guns firing over the 15bps limit were not detected- is this true? Why the hell do you only have one device for the entire event? If the PA are standing behind this rule surely they need to be able to effectively enforce it.

Olli I promise you mate the device is fantastic and it works very very well, it can store the last one hundred shots and tell you the time every shot was fired and it can detect a thousand shots per second.
If you want to check with someone, get in touch with John Bonich he will give you an honest opinion.
We have two types on order some with a built in chrono and they will be here soon.

Originally posted by ollytheosteo
How do you respond to the criticisms re marshalling? Surely for a major event with new rules in place the Marshalls should be experienced, full of zip and fully aware of the rules they're supposed to be enforcing?

Every ref we use has to sit a written exam on the rules we also have some of the best refs in the country running each field.
we will still get a few mistakes but I hope the good calls far outway the bad ones.
We also have a ref training programe and at the end of every event the field ultimates have to fill in a report on each ref, all the refs have their own ref log which we fill in so we can keep a check on there development as refs.

Originally posted by ollytheosteo
I think either you or Hatts should respond to the above instead of flinging silly talk of lawsuits around whilst at the same time ignoring everything else.

The silly talk of lawsuits was me and only me - nothing to do with the PA, And I dont ignore everything, I think its when I seem to have said it all ten times before and people can not be bothered looking.
All I want to help do is to try and promote paintball the sport and if that means I have to put myself in the firing line well so be it.
I truly believe that this is the way to go and not just for the PSP MS and the PA but everyone.
We will have problems on the way, but we will get it right.
This season will be a very big learning curve for all the Series whoever they are but we are all in agreement that it is the way forward.
Wanna help!


Russ

 

[Russell Smith]

Originally posted by duffistuta


Let me know, cos I'm pretty sure PGI isn't paying our membership fees to you and I need to rectify that with accounts immediately.

Could you make the cheque payable to the PA then mate.


Russ

 

[Collier]

Originally posted by mad dog
OK once again here we go.


1.Dont allow ramping modes to continue to fire after the trigger has been released its unsafe.

2.15 bps cap lovely, nice odd number to which most players easily achieve.

3.Reduced rate of fps great less injuries.

4.Create a tent with a firing range and chrono behind it have two voted in chrono judges that change every tourney with the tech back ground to understand the boards and modes and test guns.

There and then test, trigger bounce, what board being used, and modes, rate of fire, fps, etc ,etc.

When check and touney ready a seal goes on the board or grip housing which if opens breaks the seal hense making the marker void and open to penalties unless good reason and re-checked.

A chrono judge looks at the marker on field, checks the seal and knows its been checked and not tampered with, all breaks on the seal will be dealt with very serious and re checked for cheating.

The chono judge then has to only check fps and move him on to the field he must tick off on sheet all team markers checked. full stop.

Pure skill only then happens and non cheating boards are a thing of the past as with ramping or any other velocity modes, because a strict test has been done.

Look at other sports mate , a tent with a couple of judges even before the games will get this issue sorted straight away, hense the the more cheats thing.

once again? I've not read these suggestions before
Anyway let's have a looky.

1. I'm almost positive my ego shoots a maximum of 2 maybe 3 balls after I stop pulling my trigger, I'll agree though I'd prefer it if the rules stated it had to stop when the trigger is not pulled and didn't start again till 5 (or higher) bps is achieved, As Russ has stated though the PA isn't big enough to demand it's own software version from companies.

2. Agreed, But noone hits 15 as consistantly as they do with ramping

3. Actually in 2 minds about this one.

4. On the face of it that's great, it'd catch anyone stoopid enough to have their modes selected. Players who have a low debounce/short trigger pull.
Unfortunatley it won't catch the hidden code cheats. The marker may have 'X brand' cheat board in it, provided that you can actually spot it does that also proove the player was going to use the mode in the tournament?
What about cheat settings on stock boards?

Ramping isn't ideal but I feel it is a step forward in levelling the field, it does need to be strictly enforced with harsh penaltys for offenders but I'm confident that will come in time.

Rnd 2 was not perfect in terms of rof enforcement but it was the first go at it, personally I didn't see any major problems with it.

The PA has said it'll be asking the managers to ask their team what they thought of it, if the majority of managers come back and say it was crap, bin it then no doubt that's what will happen.

 

[Beaker]

There was no failure in the chrono protocol, we have always checked everyone in the team going onto the field, as you know the UK norm is to pick a couple of players at random, in the later half of the morning session we started to lose a little time so I took a decision to tell one of the chrono stations to start to pick players at random from each team, at least three untill we finished the morning session to stop the bottle neck from developing.

Anyone of the players care to comment on that?

As doesn't tie up with what people have told me, like in this PM

Chrono Judging was a joke. My gun and I didn't go near a chrono judge all day.

So will anyone else say what happened to them and their team?