Ramping at the PA...
- Thread starter Hatts
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Okay, having spent the last one gazillion hours (re)reading some of this thread, it seems we are kinda missing the point.
Ramping good/bad...well, we all have our opinions on it, and even though I like the idea, having just had one event seems a little short to be able to draw conclusions.
The real issue is cheating. The ramping rule was not instituted just for the heck of it, it was instituted because, on paper at least, it seemed like it is the only way that cheater boards can be policed. I'm pretty sure that if somebody came up with a fool proof way to police semi auto only, that would be implemented. As it is, that ain't the case.
With a strict 15 bps cap, it doesn't really make that much difference how you achieve this, everybody shoots at pretty much the same rof.
The problem is that, at least in the perception of MANY players, rof is not being policed properly. Now the PA claims that they do police it properly, but perception is reality for most people, so even if the devices used to check rof do operate as they should, the PA should make an effort to make people realise this. Yes/No discussions on the internet won't really help here.
As far as guns ceasing to shoot as soon as you stop pulling the trigger, logic will tell you that's impossible. The whole point of ramping is that your gun adds shots to the number of times you pull the trigger. So unless you can plug your gun into your brain (which I'm sure WDP is working on, and SP will claim the credit for), there is no way your gun will be able to know that you have just pulled the trigger for the last time, until after an x amount of time has passed with no trigger pulls, by which time the gun will have added a few shots.
Ramping good/bad...well, we all have our opinions on it, and even though I like the idea, having just had one event seems a little short to be able to draw conclusions.
The real issue is cheating. The ramping rule was not instituted just for the heck of it, it was instituted because, on paper at least, it seemed like it is the only way that cheater boards can be policed. I'm pretty sure that if somebody came up with a fool proof way to police semi auto only, that would be implemented. As it is, that ain't the case.
With a strict 15 bps cap, it doesn't really make that much difference how you achieve this, everybody shoots at pretty much the same rof.
The problem is that, at least in the perception of MANY players, rof is not being policed properly. Now the PA claims that they do police it properly, but perception is reality for most people, so even if the devices used to check rof do operate as they should, the PA should make an effort to make people realise this. Yes/No discussions on the internet won't really help here.
As far as guns ceasing to shoot as soon as you stop pulling the trigger, logic will tell you that's impossible. The whole point of ramping is that your gun adds shots to the number of times you pull the trigger. So unless you can plug your gun into your brain (which I'm sure WDP is working on, and SP will claim the credit for), there is no way your gun will be able to know that you have just pulled the trigger for the last time, until after an x amount of time has passed with no trigger pulls, by which time the gun will have added a few shots.
Can of worms
Insurance
Currently several organisers have insurance to cover their paintball events and one of the underwriters is happy with what I have presented as the "tournament" side of paintball. Now if we want to open a can of worms we can!!
To my knowledege they have not and will not offer a discount to event organisers so if you want a discount talk to the insurers explain what you do and what the other organisers turn a blind eye to and watch what happens. My guess is withdrawal of cover.
If cover is withdraw I for one will stop running events as I know what a claim can cost, those who carry on will eventually find out what it costs and it will be a personal cost not insured as it was when a claim was made against me!!
If you want I can speak to the insurers today and see what their view is on ramping etc...... it my be legal in law but they might find it an unacceptable risk. What happens then??????
Can of worms - keep it closed.
Steve
Insurance
Currently several organisers have insurance to cover their paintball events and one of the underwriters is happy with what I have presented as the "tournament" side of paintball. Now if we want to open a can of worms we can!!
To my knowledege they have not and will not offer a discount to event organisers so if you want a discount talk to the insurers explain what you do and what the other organisers turn a blind eye to and watch what happens. My guess is withdrawal of cover.
If cover is withdraw I for one will stop running events as I know what a claim can cost, those who carry on will eventually find out what it costs and it will be a personal cost not insured as it was when a claim was made against me!!
If you want I can speak to the insurers today and see what their view is on ramping etc...... it my be legal in law but they might find it an unacceptable risk. What happens then??????
Can of worms - keep it closed.
Steve
I will comment on it, as I have nothing to lose but I will tell you the truth thats all,
The PA was set up as I understand to promote Uk paintball, and I admire HAtts, Gillie, RusSel for this.
But heres the score promises promises promises, loads of talk and very little done but bluffs.
They appear to be now an unprofessional small fry tourney taking loads of money for the gimmick of ramping.
No offense to these guys, anybody who promotes paintball deserves a pat on the back, but please try an remember this we are people, players not sheep.
We do like the attitude like said on sunday if you "If you don't like it we have Shockwave ready to replace you", as said by a senior member of the PA, sort of chubby face with blonde grey hair, used to smile when talking to me.
ITS RUDE.
The problem lies also in it going to certain peoples heads but can't say for threat of beinging taken to court, scary stuff, have to get my team of solicitors on it to beat the highly educated legal staff at the PA.
The fact iv'e been in the Security industry for over 10 years and appeared in court defending my lads against claims won't help me at all. This would not be to good for me as they have developed test cases and not spent thier valuble time on setting up the fields as promised. This was meant as a joke by the way!
RUssel your pathetic, go drink tea!
ITS GONE TO THIER HEADS, IS IT CALLED MIDAS TOUCH.
I expressed a view on safety and was quashed, so I kicked up a stink, funny I am usually calm.
I said things that had not been done, and told to basically shut it, Not discussed, no meetings held.
People who avoid confrontations have things to hide thats all i'm saying.
I am not playing the PA anymore due to safety issues, maybe just in my mind who knows?
There was a promise from HAtts to me that netting would be changed and it did not get changed, I even offered to help free of charge so where's the money issue?
As previously mentioned, a long time ago in section 1 paragraph 3.2 of this book. lol.
I wrote for thier magazine free of charge for new people coming into the game but did not even get all my copies free off the magazine, god ha ha so funny.
Small small comments on how to play and train a team and have to buy my own copy how sad.
Think I will have to go down the gym and train harder to avoid my free speech on this, as the PA will have a squad of heavies at my door soon.
Of course I may be stuffed if they having ramping fists. HA HA
Money is an evil if you cant control it in your head, You become greedy and some people lose control who may not of ever had it before!
I look at this this way, to many negatives and not anough plus's made my mind up, I stayed and watched all afternoon.
A young member from a site deals with site games and stag groups all the time and said this.
" I see groups getting welts playing hard on site, but this is stupid, No way would I play this and he would be the future of paintball maybe".
I made my mind up after hearing this so I will now take my own path to improving paintball, but believe me Thank you PA for showing me what not to do, saving me a lot of time and money and others starting up.
They stuck there necks out and said they are the best in the UK my opinion is now one of they are a run of the mill, well organised marketing company, knocking at your door soon to self promote the PA paintball through you free of charge. By your advertising efforts trained to you at a meeting then you and your team let out to knock doors.
Bring back Kirby Hoovers I knew the lads well.
Wish I had a share could get a 1- 2.8 sales ratio once apon a time lol.
Please dont take me to court because im bigger than you Russel and drink more tea. LMAO.
ANyway Russel directed to you you are the PA, think about it, you will find you have jumped into that role like it or not, The AMerican scene that took on your rules because you had an idea about refs and it was good, stick to reffing and not business please, god you have even taken my ideas about numbers and ref id's on there shirts.
That makes you look good does it not.
The refs out there that I know and have seen for years are brilliant, they understand paintball well and thats what we need but happened to the standard of training and play or did it all fall apart. or have you run out of venues to train at?
Sorry do I sound fed up, maybe because I have the day off, and bored, going down the gym knock a few sets out......(PLAYS THE THEME TO ROCKY)
The PA was set up as I understand to promote Uk paintball, and I admire HAtts, Gillie, RusSel for this.
But heres the score promises promises promises, loads of talk and very little done but bluffs.
They appear to be now an unprofessional small fry tourney taking loads of money for the gimmick of ramping.
No offense to these guys, anybody who promotes paintball deserves a pat on the back, but please try an remember this we are people, players not sheep.
We do like the attitude like said on sunday if you "If you don't like it we have Shockwave ready to replace you", as said by a senior member of the PA, sort of chubby face with blonde grey hair, used to smile when talking to me.
ITS RUDE.
The problem lies also in it going to certain peoples heads but can't say for threat of beinging taken to court, scary stuff, have to get my team of solicitors on it to beat the highly educated legal staff at the PA.
The fact iv'e been in the Security industry for over 10 years and appeared in court defending my lads against claims won't help me at all. This would not be to good for me as they have developed test cases and not spent thier valuble time on setting up the fields as promised. This was meant as a joke by the way!
RUssel your pathetic, go drink tea!
ITS GONE TO THIER HEADS, IS IT CALLED MIDAS TOUCH.
I expressed a view on safety and was quashed, so I kicked up a stink, funny I am usually calm.
I said things that had not been done, and told to basically shut it, Not discussed, no meetings held.
People who avoid confrontations have things to hide thats all i'm saying.
I am not playing the PA anymore due to safety issues, maybe just in my mind who knows?
There was a promise from HAtts to me that netting would be changed and it did not get changed, I even offered to help free of charge so where's the money issue?
As previously mentioned, a long time ago in section 1 paragraph 3.2 of this book. lol.
I wrote for thier magazine free of charge for new people coming into the game but did not even get all my copies free off the magazine, god ha ha so funny.
Small small comments on how to play and train a team and have to buy my own copy how sad.
Think I will have to go down the gym and train harder to avoid my free speech on this, as the PA will have a squad of heavies at my door soon.
Of course I may be stuffed if they having ramping fists. HA HA
Money is an evil if you cant control it in your head, You become greedy and some people lose control who may not of ever had it before!
I look at this this way, to many negatives and not anough plus's made my mind up, I stayed and watched all afternoon.
A young member from a site deals with site games and stag groups all the time and said this.
" I see groups getting welts playing hard on site, but this is stupid, No way would I play this and he would be the future of paintball maybe".
I made my mind up after hearing this so I will now take my own path to improving paintball, but believe me Thank you PA for showing me what not to do, saving me a lot of time and money and others starting up.
They stuck there necks out and said they are the best in the UK my opinion is now one of they are a run of the mill, well organised marketing company, knocking at your door soon to self promote the PA paintball through you free of charge. By your advertising efforts trained to you at a meeting then you and your team let out to knock doors.
Bring back Kirby Hoovers I knew the lads well.
Wish I had a share could get a 1- 2.8 sales ratio once apon a time lol.
Please dont take me to court because im bigger than you Russel and drink more tea. LMAO.
ANyway Russel directed to you you are the PA, think about it, you will find you have jumped into that role like it or not, The AMerican scene that took on your rules because you had an idea about refs and it was good, stick to reffing and not business please, god you have even taken my ideas about numbers and ref id's on there shirts.
That makes you look good does it not.
The refs out there that I know and have seen for years are brilliant, they understand paintball well and thats what we need but happened to the standard of training and play or did it all fall apart. or have you run out of venues to train at?
Sorry do I sound fed up, maybe because I have the day off, and bored, going down the gym knock a few sets out......(PLAYS THE THEME TO ROCKY)
Mad Dog,
Question.
Are manufacturers and software producers going to make the chip code publicly available? if not isn't there a tiny flaw in your plan?
What about boards with multiple fire modes, the code will be evident on the board, how are you going to ensure it's not activated?
Isn't it realtively easy to hide code within chips?
Even if the code is available from the chip producers / manufacturers, aren't you going to need forensic programners / analysts to check it?
And it don't really solve the issue of people adjusting their LPRs on field to promote bounce does it? You don't need to dick around with software to make your gun go crazy, so placing so much emphasis on cheat chips you often miss the obvious.
It might be a good idea, but it dosen't appear very workable.
I tried to write the above in poetry, but the flowery prose escapeth me.
Question.
Are manufacturers and software producers going to make the chip code publicly available? if not isn't there a tiny flaw in your plan?
What about boards with multiple fire modes, the code will be evident on the board, how are you going to ensure it's not activated?
Isn't it realtively easy to hide code within chips?
Even if the code is available from the chip producers / manufacturers, aren't you going to need forensic programners / analysts to check it?
And it don't really solve the issue of people adjusting their LPRs on field to promote bounce does it? You don't need to dick around with software to make your gun go crazy, so placing so much emphasis on cheat chips you often miss the obvious.
It might be a good idea, but it dosen't appear very workable.
I tried to write the above in poetry, but the flowery prose escapeth me.
Sorry dont have all the answers my son lol, sounding like a martial arts master, I can lead you to water but teaching you to drink is another thing. Sorry laughing.
I'm not getting paid for this stuff, and yes have answers for some problems but keeping it simple is what it is all about.
Look we play, we want things to happen we shout loud enough and gun designers , chip designers will listen.
Funny how the Ramping boards have just done good business, over us screeming for them really quickly.
I see it this way, a designated lock code in the marker, a program available or the software available to manufactures only or even a governing body.
A professional chip board programmer to check guns or develop a hacking program to find the info they need to sort the problem out.
I mean there are kids out there always beating new programs and hacking them, why not have a guntech new kid on the block wanting to make a name for himself overnight and hack cheating boards for competitions.
I would like to discuss this in a meeting with some of the top guys in paintball as I see its possible.
( Just a point have not seen anything more yet on the shooting with paintball gun incident. Which he pleaded guilty to in Nottingham which is good)
IF you think some kid is coming near my £800 marker with a laptop and some cables in an attempt to 'hack' my board you got another thing coming!!!
Bye bye warranty!!
Companys value their code to the tune of tens of thousands, trust me their not gonna be releasing it anytime soon!
Bye bye warranty!!
Companys value their code to the tune of tens of thousands, trust me their not gonna be releasing it anytime soon!
Always an argument, your good mate, I dont think anybody has yet but soon will have a patent on Optical fibre communication.
God so many secrets given out, Am I not al knowing lol, Maybe change my name to GAME GURU.
WE fit an optical cable adaptor to a marker you know like those on dvd etc for those not knowing. Then it communicates directly with the main brain of your baby honey.
A governing body has a inspection directly with manufacturers and gives them a seal of approval on thier software that a certain code does what it says it does.
WE then look for that capping mode, either inputted by a tent ref at the comp, or by ourselves.
The idea of entering a competition then going getting your marker checked then a program entered into your marker will make it easier for your less educated of guntechs, and they can just play knowing they have passed the check tent.
We regulate this by a governing inspection lobby going to the factory and keeping thier secrets safe.
That is a flat out lie
I know many people who were sporadically checkec last sunday, and two who were not checked all day.
They either walked past chrono judges who either ignored them or were busy chronoing other people.
With people slipping through, and deliberately shooting hot, and above the 15bps limit, i would say that that constitutes a pretty big chrono failure.
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