PSP's new 15 BPS rule

[Justin Owen]

>>>> And because of that your post is totally useless. <<<<

I imagine it's "useless" to those who don't like what I said and "useful" to those on the other end of the camp. Either way, it may or may not have been redundant ...if it was, then I'm throwing my hat behind important points, and if it wasn't, then it was stuff that needs to be said.
So, I'd argue even the least intelligent of us can likely see at least a shred of "useful" somewhere in there. But you were probably generalizing.


>>>> Secondly as to your post. Bull****. <<<<

LOL (It's all good, bro...I saw the smiley but I hear what'ch'r sayin'.)

>>>> It's like you stepped into the thread and said "I can make fission in a test tube, but I won't tell you how". I'd like to hear how to catch the cheats, and how easy it is to solve this problem. Please point out these easy ways to catch the cheats and how easy it is to solve this problem. <<<<

Simple solutions often times require a fresh perspective to reveal themselves. Another way to sometimes work out simple solutions to problems is to work backwards from the "solution fixed", and see just how you might have gotten there. In other words, instead of looking at things from your current basecamp, what if you were to look in the future two years and see that a solution actually HAD been worked out? Then your mission, were you to choose to accept it, would be to figure out how in the world those future blokes actually solved the problem (knowing that they had).

Ask yourself this: What is the PROBLEM you are trying to fix? Are you trying to stop people from cheating??? Then stop thinking of it like a race and start thinking of it like parenting. The basic principle is risk vs. reward. All you have to do is lay the ground rules and then have the kahunas (and at least a shred of the means) to back it up. I'm not computer whiz and I can't reprogram a board, but I KNOW there are solutions to this problem that don't compromise safety and should nip this problem in the bud.

Folks at the moment are working on the assumption that there IS NO solution...it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy...assume it's too hard and you'll figure out a way to make it so. Take two steps back and punt. All of the arguments against solving this problem right now are based upon premises that are pretty much self-shackling. Bind yourselves and you LET yourselves fall victim.
Work backwards and see how the problem can get solved. Start from scratch...no boundaries. DEBATE IT for a while and see what comes about. I'll be interested to see what you guys can think up.

Lotsa love to all...

~J~

 

[Justin Owen]

One other thing...

Let me throw another thought out there...

Next year one of the two "big" series is hosting its first event of the year. On one of the lesser teams there is a 16 year old kid and his team is playing one of the veteran squads, and his group is clearly outmatched.

Near the end of a game our friend the 16 year old is laying on his right side, shooting out of the right side of his bunker down the tapeline. He doesn't realize it but he's the last player left on his team. One of his opponents, awww hell let's just say two for the fun of it, come out of their bunkers and tear towards him, blazing away, maxxed out at 15 bps a piece. They reach the 16 yr old kid at the same time, as he's laid out practically supine, exposed, and he gets seven or eight shots within the area of a silver dollar on a very sensitive, and very exposed, area somewhere on the upper half of his being. The kid flinches when he gets mugged, and the other team runs the flag in while shouting in victory. Then everyone notices that the kid isn't getting up from behind his bunker. In fact, he looks to be barely moving, maybe even shaking a bit, that is if he's actually moving at all.

Whether the kid ends up permanently disabled or dead is up to however you want to play this scenario. Either way, his horrified (followed by grief-stricken, and then enraged) mother and father do not hesitate to contact a lawyer in the next few days after learning of the rigid debate surrounding the allowance of the "breed" of marker used in the mugging. A multi-million dollar lawsuit is filed against the tournament producers, its sponsors, the opposing team, everyone. In the months ahead, their savvy lawyer demonstrates (with relative ease) that the producers had not taken every precaution to protect the safety of the players on their way to allowing ramping 'guns, and in fact had not heeded the warnings about just this sort of scenario that had been given by a few alarmist old skool paintball players on the 'net. "Amazingly," our savvy lawyer fella, despite having never played a game of paintball in his life, presents two or three quite-reasonable options, or "solutions", to the problem of ramping 'guns as he argues his assertion that the producers had not adequately explored the possibilities and investigated every solution. The resulting court judgement is gargantuan.

Paintball, eager for press, all of the sudden finds itself at the center of a media frenzy portraying the dangers of the sport, the carelessness of those who promote it, and our 16 yr old becomes the poster child for our sport with the aid of his crusading parents. Paintball, which had just been on the verge of winning over outside sponsors and major money, now finds itself alone in the cold...no one wants to touch us with a ten meter pole. One tournament series declares bankruptcy. The second tournament series suddenly opens their insurance bill to find their monthly premium has increased tenfold, if it isn't an outright cancellation notice. And regardless, they have no choice but to tighten up on all the issues that they'd originally declared "unfixable," because if they suffer such a tragedy after all of this has happened, nothing will save them. A few alarmist old skool paintball players aren't the least bit surprised that, finally, a solution to the problem is found. Too bad so much was lost in the awakening.


Now, Nostradomus (sp?) I ain't...but I can guarantee you that IF the powers-that-be KNEW that this would happen next year UNLESS they solved the cheating issue without allowing ramping guns, you can darn well be guaranteed they'd figure out a solution.

But I have learned that people in general, not just paintballers, often times need a tragic wake-up call before they stand up and take notice...before they figure out a way to fix what had otherwise been dismissed as unfixable. But if they'd just bite the bullet from the start, they'd never encounter such a problem.

If I were running a paintball series, I, personally, would look at the worst-case scenario(s) and figure out how to keep those things from happening.

But I'm not running a paintball series, duh.

I just hope the ones that are will tackle this issue PROACTIVELY rather than REACTIVELY.

Lotsa love to all...
~J~

 

[sie2050]

One other thing...

Originally posted by Justin Owen
Let me throw another thought out there...

Next year one of the two "big" series is hosting its first event of the year. On one of the lesser teams there is a 16 year old kid and his team is playing one of the veteran squads, and his group is clearly outmatched.

Near the end of a game our friend the 16 year old is laying on his right side, shooting out of the right side of his bunker down the tapeline. He doesn't realize it but he's the last player left on his team. One of his opponents, awww hell let's just say two for the fun of it, come out of their bunkers and tear towards him, blazing away, maxxed out at 15 bps a piece. They reach the 16 yr old kid at the same time, as he's laid out practically supine, exposed, and he gets seven or eight shots within the area of a silver dollar on a very sensitive, and very exposed, area somewhere on the upper half of his being. The kid flinches when he gets mugged, and the other team runs the flag in while shouting in victory. Then everyone notices that the kid isn't getting up from behind his bunker. In fact, he looks to be barely moving, maybe even shaking a bit, that is if he's actually moving at all.

Whether the kid ends up permanently disabled or dead is up to however you want to play this scenario. Either way, his horrified (followed by grief-stricken, and then enraged) mother and father do not hesitate to contact a lawyer in the next few days after learning of the rigid debate surrounding the allowance of the "breed" of marker used in the mugging. A multi-million dollar lawsuit is filed against the tournament producers, its sponsors, the opposing team, everyone. In the months ahead, their savvy lawyer demonstrates (with relative ease) that the producers had not taken every precaution to protect the safety of the players on their way to allowing ramping 'guns, and in fact had not heeded the warnings about just this sort of scenario that had been given by a few alarmist old skool paintball players on the 'net. "Amazingly," our savvy lawyer fella, despite having never played a game of paintball in his life, presents two or three quite-reasonable options, or "solutions", to the problem of ramping 'guns as he argues his assertion that the producers had not adequately explored the possibilities and investigated every solution. The resulting court judgement is gargantuan.

Paintball, eager for press, all of the sudden finds itself at the center of a media frenzy portraying the dangers of the sport, the carelessness of those who promote it, and our 16 yr old becomes the poster child for our sport with the aid of his crusading parents. Paintball, which had just been on the verge of winning over outside sponsors and major money, now finds itself alone in the cold...no one wants to touch us with a ten meter pole. One tournament series declares bankruptcy. The second tournament series suddenly opens their insurance bill to find their monthly premium has increased tenfold, if it isn't an outright cancellation notice. And regardless, they have no choice but to tighten up on all the issues that they'd originally declared "unfixable," because if they suffer such a tragedy after all of this has happened, nothing will save them. A few alarmist old skool paintball players aren't the least bit surprised that, finally, a solution to the problem is found. Too bad so much was lost in the awakening.


Now, Nostradomus (sp?) I ain't...but I can guarantee you that IF the powers-that-be KNEW that this would happen next year UNLESS they solved the cheating issue without allowing ramping guns, you can darn well be guaranteed they'd figure out a solution.

But I have learned that people in general, not just paintballers, often times need a tragic wake-up call before they stand up and take notice...before they figure out a way to fix what had otherwise been dismissed as unfixable. But if they'd just bite the bullet from the start, they'd never encounter such a problem.

If I were running a paintball series, I, personally, would look at the worst-case scenario(s) and figure out how to keep those things from happening.

But I'm not running a paintball series, duh.

I just hope the ones that are will tackle this issue PROACTIVELY rather than REACTIVELY.

Lotsa love to all...
~J~

another thing to add to that is JT say replace your lense after you have been shot ONCE within ten feet well if your being mugged its closer than ten feet and at 15 bps (and you will be shootin for longer than a second) in the googs you gonna be blind b4 the ref can stop the guy shootin at ya and i want to keep my vision so i can see sum idiot being sued for blinding sumone.

also i dont think this will help in expanding the sport because the idea of a group of 5-7-10 men shootin at each other with semi auto guns is not really accepted as a sport already and making it allowable for ramping to come into play people will definitely not class it as a sport because instead of 1 shot mugging its 15-30-45 which increases the chance of injury or death while playing the sport which instead of attracting people to the "sport" as we would call it it would repel them due to the fact that they can go do another known sport which has a lower chance of injury involved.
my 2p and if this dont make sense giv me a pm and correct watever is wrong then i can copy and paste it right cheers -sie-

 

[Baca Loco]

All that's needed is a little encouragement

Originally posted by Justin Owen
1-->>>> And because of that your post is totally useless. <<<<

2-->>>> Secondly as to your post. Bull****. <<<<

3--I'm not computer whiz and I can't reprogram a board, but I KNOW there are solutions to this problem that don't compromise safety and should nip this problem in the bud.

4--DEBATE IT for a while and see what comes about. I'll be interested to see what you guys can think up.

Justin,
you're always welcome here and you are, as is everyone else, (even ITN) entitled to your opinion, but--

1--it was useless because you are admittedly unfamiliar with the argument/debate so far, much less all the discussions that have preceded this one over the last year, yet claim to have answers you're, so far, unwilling to share.

(BTW, semi-auto is in the wind and has been for sometime.)

2--nicely zen but doesn't actually address the issues, does it? "Take the stone from my hand, Grasshopper." "But Master, I'm hungry, I'm thirsty."

3--If you KNOW them let's hear them. If what you mean is I feel like there must be some alternative, fine, but otherwise . . .

4--why will you be interested to see what comes up when you can't be bothered to find out what's come before?

 

[manike]

Re:

Originally posted by Justin Owen
Simple solutions often times require a fresh perspective to reveal themselves. Another way to sometimes work out simple solutions to problems is to work backwards from the "solution fixed", and see just how you might have gotten there. In other words, instead of looking at things from your current basecamp, what if you were to look in the future two years and see that a solution actually HAD been worked out? Then your mission, were you to choose to accept it, would be to figure out how in the world those future blokes actually solved the problem (knowing that they had).

Ask yourself this: What is the PROBLEM you are trying to fix? Are you trying to stop people from cheating??? Then stop thinking of it like a race and start thinking of it like parenting. The basic principle is risk vs. reward. All you have to do is lay the ground rules and then have the kahunas (and at least a shred of the means) to back it up. I'm not computer whiz and I can't reprogram a board, but I KNOW there are solutions to this problem that don't compromise safety and should nip this problem in the bud.

Folks at the moment are working on the assumption that there IS NO solution...it's like a self-fulfilling prophecy...assume it's too hard and you'll figure out a way to make it so. Take two steps back and punt. All of the arguments against solving this problem right now are based upon premises that are pretty much self-shackling. Bind yourselves and you LET yourselves fall victim.
Work backwards and see how the problem can get solved. Start from scratch...no boundaries. DEBATE IT for a while and see what comes about. I'll be interested to see what you guys can think up.

Lotsa love to all...

~J~

Justin you should be a politician, you so say much, so eloquently, but in reality you answer nothing.

Just because you are so new into this discussion doesn't mean some of us haven't been looking at this for years and trying to find solutions.

Don't tell us to ask ourselves about the problem when some of us have been racking our brains to try and find a solution for a LONG time.

Again you alude to an answer you don't present.

As for the safety of impacts.. unless you have some proof to back up what you are saying I think you are crying wolf.

As far as I am aware there has only ever been ONE case of a post mortem examination of someone who died shortly after playing paintball, and they found NO signs of any injury caused by a shot to the head (and the player was shot to the head from relatively close range). Unless you have some other facts to post that back your point please don't shout 'fire' just because you can.

A single paintball impact can bear the same risks as multiple impacts. Again unless you have PROOF of multiple impacts being worse, you are just scaremongering.

As for the safety of goggles...

As long as you use decent quality goggles and replace the lenses as specified I don't believe there is a safety issue...

This test was from approx 3 feet, with an NXL style code but that still required you to keep walking your fingers (like the PSP is suggesting) at over 300fps. It's a full loader...

You'll need quicktime to watch it.

Goggle test

 

[Chicago]

Re: One other thing...

Originally posted by sie2050
another thing to add to that is JT say replace your lense after you have been shot ONCE within ten feet

Well, yeah, there's profit on them replacement lenses you know.

 

[Chicago]

Justin:

While your nightmare scenario sounds horrendous, a story about how paintball is brought to its knees because a psychotic paintball player, who had a hatchet hidden in his pack, splits open the head of his 14-year-old opponent, and the promoter is sued for millions of dollars for not putting their players through a metal detector before letting them on the field, sounds just as bad.

Just because the story sounds bad doesn't make it realistic.

7 or 8 hits in a silver dollar area would take a full half second, which is a very long time in a game. That's not a case of equipment, that's a case of wreckless use of the equipment. Any player could do the same thing right now.

While it would definitely suck to take 7 or 8 hits on the noggin, and could very well cause you to black out, it's very unlikely to cause any real harm. You ever seen that traumahead video with the guy getting shot 200 times in about 10 seconds? It hurts, and it might make you bleed a bit, but it ain't going to cripple you.

There are three areas where paintballs will cause you harm: Eyes, ears, and potentially the temple. That's why we wear goggle systems. And even at 15 bps, those goggle systems are far more effective than safety equipment in other sports, especially in comparison to football/hockey/etc.



Now, don't get me wrong - I don't like this ramping thing any more than you do, but I understand *WHY* it's happening. It's the only thing they CAN do. That's your error: You've decided the way things SHOULD be, but you havn't taken the time to look at the way things are.

If safety were king, we could solve this simply and easily: Ban electronic components in markers. 100% effective and 100% doable right now. But if you give 99% of players the choice between not getting shot at 15 bps and not having electronics in their markers, they'll take the electronic markers every time.

The next option is to have standard, verifiable electronics. But the companies in the industry are incapable of looking past their ability to control the industry. I'm not even talking about money here - I think a lot of these guys would blow a million just to make sure the guy who pissed them off 5 years ago can't succeed.


This is *NOT* a technical problem. You're right, there are easy, technical solutions. This is a *POLITICAL* problem. no matter what solution is proposed, and no matter who proposes it, one group won't do it simply because the other group is. Its why there's no robot in PSP and why NPPL doesn't use APPA. It's why you don't see any trained NPPL refs at PSP events or NXL refs at NPPL events.

These guys are too busy running around suing each other to realize that if they took all the money they were spending on lawyers and invested it in an industry trade group that would promote paintball they'd all make more money. People actually say to me "I don't care how good it is, if so-and-so is involved, we're not using it." When you're dealing with that sort of "As long as it ain't the other guy" mentality, whether it's technically possible or not is the least of your concerns.


Primary blame for this problem: Players who are unwiling to give up electronic components. Secondary blame: An industry happier if everyone loses than if the other guy wins.

 

[sie2050]

yer i see where your comin from but still think about the people who decide everytime they get hit on the goggs and say pft its only a scam trying to make me buy new lense but then find out one day their lense decides to break and then they end up in a and e for 6 hours to actually hear a doctors voice then get told that they are blind. the plastic used in gogg lenses decay and breakdown due to weathering and the products within the paintball so everytime you use your goggs your lense wears out so one day while playing its is a possibility to break and cause injury.***(have to learn stuff like this in engineering to make the best product etc etc)****

 

[manike]

Originally posted by sie2050
yer i see where your comin from but still think about the people who decide everytime they get hit on the goggs and say pft its only a scam trying to make me buy new lense but then find out one day their lense decides to break and then they end up in a and e for 6 hours to actually hear a doctors voice then get told that they are blind. the plastic used in gogg lenses decay and breakdown due to weathering and the products within the paintball so everytime you use your goggs your lense wears out so one day while playing its is a possibility to break and cause injury.***(have to learn stuff like this in engineering to make the best product etc etc)****

Agreed. That's why you should replaces your lenses, at a MINIMUM of once a year, or as soon as they show any visual signs of deterioration.

 

[sie2050]

yer but you get the odd idiot who thinks stress marks on plastic looks kwl