Proposal for a summit about keeping markers legal

[Lucky.One]

well intentioned, but only two things can happen.

1. First ASTM rules are passed then largely ignored (like the gentlemens agreement about 13 bps, that lasted as long as it took the eye doctors A.D.D. to kick in). Then any manufacturer who makes a board that easily rapid fires, then someday, said board, puts out two eyes on one kid. That board manufacturer will be sued into oblivion because ASTM says this board is a no-no. Everyone will be scared and regulate themselves.

2. Goggles, safe areas etc become safer and the race continues for faster feed rates. Chronos must be used to regulate speed no matter what. Electronic cheats for speed must be caught, proven and dealt with most harshly.

Other than that, the proposal/meeting will go no where. All gun manufactures are doing it, plus the nerds that can reprogram their friends boards with devilish tricks. I am all for a cap. But I am also not going to release guns for sale that are 'slow' because my competition raised the bar with 'cheats' straight from the manufacturer. And this is what the CUSTOMER demands. While a few of us are going 'oh sh1t, this is going to bite us in the as$ some day' we are left with little choice. Some may say we should take the moral high ground and lead by example, but we have bills to pay and in this case moral high ground will cause projects to fail miserable. Or we could quit paintball.?

I would certainly help, but the forum for this to get done is ASTM paintball committee and they can't agree on the color of the sky.
Otherwise, plan 2, its up to the protection makers to step up. ASTM standards on goggles for pball are a joke. Most goggles used pass only with the visor installed, we all know that's how everyone plays. I know ASTM doenst help the EU all that much but the market is like 10:1 us players vs euros so you don't matter all that much j/k

 

[manike]

Originally posted by evil.one
well intentioned, but only two things can happen.

1. First ASTM rules are passed then largely ignored (like the gentlemens agreement about 13 bps, that lasted as long as it took the eye doctors A.D.D. to kick in). Then any manufacturer who makes a board that easily rapid fires, then someday, said board, puts out two eyes on one kid. That board manufacturer will be sued into oblivion because ASTM says this board is a no-no. Everyone will be scared and regulate themselves.

2. Goggles, safe areas etc become safer and the race continues for faster feed rates. Chronos must be used to regulate speed no matter what. Electronic cheats for speed must be caught, proven and dealt with most harshly.

Other than that, the proposal/meeting will go no where. All gun manufactures are doing it, plus the nerds that can reprogram their friends boards with devilish tricks. I am all for a cap. But I am also not going to release guns for sale that are 'slow' because my competition raised the bar with 'cheats' straight from the manufacturer. And this is what the CUSTOMER demands. While a few of us are going 'oh sh1t, this is going to bite us in the as$ some day' we are left with little choice. Some may say we should take the moral high ground and lead by example, but we have bills to pay and in this case moral high ground will cause projects to fail miserable. Or we could quit paintball.?

I would certainly help, but the forum for this to get done is ASTM paintball committee and they can't agree on the color of the sky.
Otherwise, plan 2, its up to the protection makers to step up. ASTM standards on goggles for pball are a joke. Most goggles used pass only with the visor installed, we all know that's how everyone plays. I know ASTM doenst help the EU all that much but the market is like 10:1 us players vs euros so you don't matter all that much j/k

I agree.

The ASTM by it's nature takes a huge amount of time to pass anything. But as you say the risk of litigation by not adhering to their standards may be the only way to make anything happen.

I don't see anything happening that can stop the issue in the short term other than far more refs, more video capture of people playing and maybe a set of refs working before the field refs to check guns about 20 mins before those people step up to play so it doesn't delay an event too much. But again that will only catch the innocent.

Video can catch the naughty people but not easily. Depends on the gun etc...

 

[Lucky.One]

Simon, its is rather simple to enforce at an event. Simply ask for chronos that record ROF and speed. Announce a cap two months prior... check three guys per team once per game. Penalize those who violate harshly. If 'they' used them, I would get them paid for/made for next year. But that crosses a line 'they' really truly don't want to cross.

don't you owe me a beer?

 

[Wadidiz]

Hey Evil.one,

I do appreciate your straight and brutally honest post. I fear you're probably right. With or without ASTM rules it will probably take some serious double-blindings with consequent litigation to whip the business into shape. But there is some possibility that could kill the whole schmeerkaas at the same time (if we haven't in reality gone past the point of no return like everyone talks about: PB having become too big of a business to stop now).

Here is something from an e-mail I got from Mike Bogolub, master NXL ref:
_______________________

Here is a concept I'm trying to get pushed thru in the US. All markers can be made to use the same board. We pre-set board for 14-16 bps. Now these boards are kept by the commisioner till the day before event when the team techs will receive them to put in their team's guns and then after tournament they are returned to commish. What this does is it will kill the 2 hardest gun cheats to catch #1 Rampup ( when a gun changes velocity due to program that changes the dwell) and #2 Multiple shots per pull (there are programs to change a gun from 8bps to 20bps once a certain fire rate is achieved). Now all that will leave is bounce which is the easiest to catch. Also on the board will be a port that we can plug into a computer to check for tampering just in case we see something funny.
__________________________

Maybe there's something to this?

Steve

 

[manike]

Originally posted by evil.one
don't you owe me a beer?

Probably quite a few, but since you ignored me in LA when I screamed at you out of a truck window I think you are buying first. I also hold you entirely responsible for the fact no-one in this sport ever spells my second name correctly...

I agree you could enforce that at an event... but those chrono's that are half decent currently run at about $800 a pop... and you would need at least one per field. With back ups. Unless you know of an accurate unit that can be had for less?

And you would catch the innocent people, but not the real cheats. And it's kind of like when we used to chrono people off the field... you aren't going to catch the people on the field which is when the cheats will be running illegal set ups, adjusting their debounce, resetting their eyes, turning their illegal swicthes etc.

So we would have less players pushing the grey area which is a good thing. And I do think more chrono's and refs checking a period of time before teams start to play would be a good move.

I also think more penalties like stopping them playing with anyone found to be breaking the rules 'for that game' would be a good move. It puts the onus (sp?) on each individual player if they want to make sure they can play...

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Wadidiz
Here is a concept I'm trying to get pushed thru in the US. All markers can be made to use the same board. We pre-set board for 14-16 bps. Now these boards are kept by the commisioner till the day before event when the team techs will receive them to put in their team's guns and then after tournament they are returned to commish. What this does is it will kill the 2 hardest gun cheats to catch #1 Rampup ( when a gun changes velocity due to program that changes the dwell) and #2 Multiple shots per pull (there are programs to change a gun from 8bps to 20bps once a certain fire rate is achieved). Now all that will leave is bounce which is the easiest to catch. Also on the board will be a port that we can plug into a computer to check for tampering just in case we see something funny.
__________________________

Maybe there's something to this?

Steve

Not all guns can run the same board. Not by a long way. An electro cocker takes a very different set of code and parameters to an intimidator.

An electrococker tends to need very different filters to stop bounce due to mechanical means, when compared to a timmy or shocker.

A bounce filter that works with a timmy may (probably) won't be enough for most electro cockers.

I'd also be rather dubious about anyone who makes this 'standard' board to fit all guns. I'd want to know the code and be able to flash anyone's board at any time with the 'correct code'...

And then that brings up a whole host of new problems.

 

[Lucky.One]

I don't know how to quote, but I didnt register it was you until about an hour later, so I owe you. As for the name, that is hilarious, the people I make loads of money for can't get it right and you get yours spelled my way. any whooo

Sorry but the standard board idea is very bad, near dumb. Just two much involved, but kudos those guys for trying to work the brain matter.

As far as the price of the chronos, please, one word buddy. China.

And exactly for your reasons the on field 'in the heat of action' check is the best place to catch them. Point and click at a guy while he ripping away. That is exactly when you don't want him to cheat and exactly when he will if he can. Hand held ballistic chronos.

 

[Wadidiz]

I constantly see that the "technical" means of detecting illegal guns would still not catch the worst offenders. But what if I as a judge or commissioner see VERY CLEARLY that more than one shot per cycle is coming out of a marker? Can I not penalize the player without having to technically prove the marker is illegal? You know, like a police officer can witness a criminal act and the criminal can be prosecuted without having to have witnesses or other clear proof?

 

[manike]

Originally posted by evil.one
Hand held ballistic chronos.

Great, I look forward to seeing the prototypes... say tomorrow?

 

[manike]

Originally posted by Wadidiz
But what if I as a judge or commissioner see VERY CLEARLY that more than one shot per cycle is coming out of a marker? Can I not penalize the player without having to technically prove the marker is illegal? You know, like a police officer can witness a criminal act and the criminal can be prosecuted without having to have witnesses or other clear proof?

Your eye is the worst measurement device known to man.

A stick is better. Because it is at least repeatable.

The human eye is designed to see patterns and what it wants to see. The ability of the human eye and ear to see what is happening and relate finger movements to shots fired is near to impossible at higher rates of fire in my opinion (unless with some of the VERY obvious cheater/hyper modes). Even when slowing down high speed video footage to watch at very slow rates it's very difficult. Let alone in real time.

If you claimed a gun was doing something and you couldn't measure it or prove it, you would be opening yourself up to abuse and litigation in my opinion. It could also be very easily abused if that power was given to general judges and not just the ultimate.